Re: Discúlpame Sabatónico
Re: Discúlpame Sabatónico
jok3r;1156815]entre los judios el vino fermentado se mezclaba con varias partes de agua para disminuir la concentracion del alcohol, con respecto al texto de pablo, pues en la iglesia de corinto habia bastante carnalidad y desordenes, asi que no es extrano que se bebieran bebidas alcoholicas en sus agapes
sin embargo los sacerdotes les estaba prohibido tocar el vino fermentado(aunque fuera diluido) cuando estuvieran oficiando bajo pena de muerte
Tú, y tus hijos contigo, no beberéis vino ni sidra cuando entréis en el tabernáculo de reunión, para que no muráis; estatuto perpetuo será para vuestras generaciones Lev 10:9
interesante el texto de Flavio Josefo en "Antiguedades judias" Libro III cap 12 dice basicamente lo mismo
"For this reason those who wear priestly garb are without blemish and pure in all respects and abstain[nephalioi] from wine, having been forbidden to drink wine so long as they wear the garb."
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¿Por qué traes como argumento lo que todos saben y no está en discusión? Sabemos que había desorden en la iglesia de Corinto; pero lo que interesa al tema, es que el apóstol Pablo condena el desorden pero no el tomar vino. Más bien dice: si quieren beber de esa manera háganlo en sus casas.
<sup>20</sup>Cuando, pues, os reunís vosotros, esto no es comer la cena del Señor.<sup> 21</sup>Porque al comer, cada uno se adelanta a tomar su propia cena; y uno tiene hambre, y otro se embriaga.<sup> 22</sup>Pues qué, ¿no tenéis casas en que comáis y bebáis? 1Cor.11
También todos saben que los sacerdotes no podían beber vino ni sidra cuanto iban a realizar sus servicios; eso es algo que también esta de más, otra cortina de humo para hacer bulto, y dar la apariencia de que tienes argumento bíblico para tu creencia. Fijate si careces de argumento bíblico, que apelas a la opinión de Josefo.
<sup>8</sup>Y Jehová habló a Aarón, diciendo:<sup> 9</sup>Tú, y tus hijos contigo, no beberéis vino ni sidra cuando entréis en el tabernáculo de reunión, para que no muráis; Lv.10
<sup>
9</sup>
Οἶνον καὶ σικερα οὐ πίεσθε, σὺ καὶ οἱ υἱοί σου μετὰ σοῦ, ἡνίκα ἂν εἰσπορεύησθε εἰς τὴν σκηνὴν τοῦ μαρτυρίου, ἢ προσπορευομένων ὑμῶν πρὸς τὸ θυσιαστήριον, καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀποθάνητε( νόμιμον αἰώνιον εἰς τὰς γενεὰς ὑμῶν)<sup>[FONT="]<sup>[FONT="][1][/FONT]</sup>[/FONT]</sup>
La conjunción [FONT="]ἡ[/FONT]νίκα indica en qué momento específico toma efecto la prohibición. En la única ocasión que se les prohíbe tomar vino, es cuando entraban en el tabernáculo a ejercer su oficio.
Estos levitas recibían grandes cantidades de vino y sidra como diezmo, de sus hermanos productores de vino y sidra. [FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
<hr width="33%" align="left" size="1">
<sup><sup>[FONT="][1][/FONT]</sup></sup> Septuaginta : With morphology. 1979 (electronic ed.) (Le 10:9). Stuttgart: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft.
esta palabra giega SI APARECE en el NT, se traduce como sobrio, y viene del verbo nepho que..surprise surprise, strong lo vierte como ABSTINENCIA DE VINO
no lo invente yo
nefalios aparece 3 veces en el NT
1 Tim 3
v2 Pero es necesario que el obispo sea irreprensible, marido de una sola mujer, sobrio, prudente, decoroso, hospedador, apto para enseñar
v11 Las mujeres asimismo sean honestas, no calumniadoras, sino sobrias, fieles en todo
Ti 2:2
Que los ancianos sean sobrios, serios, prudentes, sanos en la fe, en el amor, en la paciencia
flavio josefo aclara explicitamente el ser sobrio[nephalios] como ABSTINENIA de vino, el lexico strong tambien con el verbo nephos
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[FONT="]Eres capaz de tergiversar hasta un léxico griego con tal de hacer tu punto. El significado primario del adjetivo [/FONT][FONT="]νηφάλιον es [/FONT][FONT="]sobro, templado. [/FONT][FONT="]El verbo nepho significa esto:[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]3525 [/FONT][FONT="]νήφω[/FONT][FONT="] [[/FONT][FONT="]nepho[/FONT][FONT="] /[/FONT][FONT="]nay[/FONT][FONT="]·fo[/FONT][FONT="]
/] v.
Of uncertain affinity; TDNT 4:936; TDNTA 633; GK 3768; Six occurrences; AV translates as “be sober” four times, and “watch” twice. [/FONT]
[FONT="]1[/FONT][FONT="] to be sober, to be calm and collected in spirit. [/FONT][FONT="]2[/FONT][FONT="] to be temperate, dispassionate, circumspect.[/FONT]
<sup>[FONT="]<sup>[FONT="][1][/FONT]</sup>[/FONT]</sup>[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]ERES UN MENTIROSO COMPROBADO.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
Ahora el adjetivo sobrio νηφάλιον
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]2[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT]δε[FONT="]ῖ[/FONT] ο[FONT="]ὖ[/FONT]ν τ[FONT="]ὸ[/FONT]ν [FONT="]ἐ[/FONT]πίσκοπον [FONT="]ἀ[/FONT]νεπίλημπτον ε[FONT="]ἶ[/FONT]ναι, μι[FONT="]ᾶ[/FONT]ς γυναικ[FONT="]ὸ[/FONT]ς [FONT="]ἄ[/FONT]νδρα, νηφάλιον σώφρονα κόσμιον φιλόξενον διδακτικόν,[FONT="]
1Tim.3:2[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]νηφάλιος, ία, ον[/FONT][FONT="] ([/FONT][FONT="]νήφω[/FONT][FONT="]; Aeschyl. et al.; Plut.; SIG 1040, 26), late form [/FONT]
[FONT="]νηφαλέος, α, ον[/FONT][FONT="] (v.l.; Herodian Gr. [/FONT][FONT="]I 114, 17 et al.; Philo, Leg. All. 3, 82; Etym. Mag. p. 261, 52; 262, 2; AcJ 69 [p. 184, 10]. On the accent s. Kühner-Bl. II p. 297, 11; B-D-F §35, 3; Mlt-H. 76; 362) of pers. (cp. Philo, Sobr. 2, Mos. 1, 187; Jos., Ant. 3, 279)[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]①[/FONT][FONT="]
pert. to being very moderate in the drinking of an alcoholic beverage, temperate, sober (so Dibelius/Conzelmann, Hermeneia comm. ad loc. On the topic of moderation in drinking wine s. Theognis 467–510. For prohibition of strong drink to priests when engaging in official duties s. Lev 10:8)
1 Ti 3:2 (opp. [/FONT][FONT="]πάροινος[/FONT][FONT="] vs.
3. The latter term is in a series chiefly composed of negatives that contrast with the positive virtues in vs. 2),
11 (cp.
Tit 2:3 and the sterotyped ‘anus’ [‘hag’] who is given to drink in Lat. lit.: Ovid, Fasti 3, 765f et al.; VRoswach, Classical World 88, ’94, 113f; Arnott, Alexis p. 504)
Tit 2:2. Others interpret metaph.[/FONT]
[FONT="]②[/FONT][FONT="]
pert. to being restrained in conduct, self-controlled, level-headed fig. ext. of 1 (s. next entry):
1 Ti 3:2, 11;
Tit 2:2.—DELG s.v. [/FONT][FONT="]νήφω[/FONT][FONT="]. M-M. TW.[/FONT]
<sup>[FONT="]<sup>[FONT="][2][/FONT]</sup>[/FONT]</sup>[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]88.87[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]νηφάλιος[/FONT][FONT="],[/FONT][FONT="] α[/FONT][FONT="],[/FONT]
[FONT="] ον[/FONT][FONT="]:
(derivative of [/FONT]
[FONT="]νήφω[/FONT]<sup>[FONT="]b[/FONT]</sup>[FONT="]
‘to be restrained,’
88.86) pertaining to behaving in a sober, restrained manner—‘sober, restrained.’ [/FONT]
[FONT="]ἐ[/FONT][FONT="]πίσκοπον[/FONT][FONT="] … [/FONT][FONT="]νηφάλιον[/FONT][FONT="],[/FONT][FONT="] σώφρονα[/FONT][FONT="],[/FONT][FONT="] κόσμιον [/FONT][FONT="]‘a church leader … must be sober, self-controlled, and orderly’ 1 Tm 3.2. In a number of languages [/FONT][FONT="]νηφάλιος [/FONT][FONT="]may be idiomatically rendered as ‘one who holds himself in’ or ‘one who always has a halter on himself.’[/FONT]
<sup>[FONT="]<sup>[FONT="][3][/FONT]</sup>[/FONT]</sup>[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]88.86[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]νήφω[/FONT]<sup>[FONT="]b[/FONT]</sup>[FONT="]:
(a figurative extension of meaning of [/FONT]
[FONT="]νήφω [/FONT][FONT="]‘to be sober,’ in the sense of not being drunk, probably not occurring in the NT) to behave with restraint and moderation, thus not permitting excess—‘to be self- controlled, to be restrained, to be moderate in one’s behavior, to be sober.’ [/FONT][FONT="]σὺ δὲ νῆφε ἐν πᾶσιν [/FONT][FONT="]‘you must keep control of yourself in all circumstances’ 2 Tm 4.5; [/FONT][FONT="]οἱ μεθυσκόμενοι νυκτὸς μεθύουσιν· ἡμεῖς δὲ ἡμέρας ὄντες νήφωμεν [/FONT][FONT="]‘those who are drunk get drunk in the night; we belong to the day and we should be sober’ 1 Th 5.7–8. It is possible that in 1 Th 5.8 [/FONT][FONT="]νήφω [/FONT][FONT="]means lack of drunkenness, but most scholars interpret the use of [/FONT][FONT="]νήφω [/FONT][FONT="]in the NT as applying to a broader range of soberness or sobriety, namely, restraint and moderation which avoids excess in passion, rashness, or confusion. For another interpretation of [/FONT][FONT="]νήφω [/FONT][FONT="]
in 1 Th 5.8, as well as in 1 Th 5.6, see 30.25.[/FONT]
<sup>[FONT="]<sup>[FONT="][4][/FONT]</sup>[/FONT]</sup>[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]3767[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT]νηφάλιος[FONT="] (nēphalios), [/FONT]α[FONT="] (a), [/FONT]ον[FONT="] (on): adj.; ≡ Str 3524—LN 88.87 [/FONT][FONT="]restrained[/FONT][FONT="]
, temperate in the use of alcohol (1Ti 3:2, 11; Tit 2:2+)
<sup><sup>[FONT="][5][/FONT]</sup></sup>[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]3 [/FONT][FONT="]Se dice, y es verdad, que si alguno desea ser obispo, a noble función aspira. <sup>2 </sup>Así que el obispo debe ser intachable, esposo de una sola mujer, moderado, sensato, respetable, hospitalario, capaz de enseñar; 1Tim. 3:2 NVI[/FONT]
<hr width="33%" align="left" size="1">
<sup><sup>[FONT="][1][/FONT]</sup></sup>Strong, J. 1996.
The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the text of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurrence of each word in regular order. (electronic ed.) (G3525). Woodside Bible Fellowship.: Ontario
<sup><sup>[FONT="][2][/FONT]</sup></sup>Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. 2000.
A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature. "Based on Walter Bauer's Griechisch-deutsches Wr[FONT="]̲[/FONT]terbuch zu den Schriften des Neuen Testaments und der frhchristlichen [sic] Literatur, sixth edition, ed. Kurt Aland and Barbara Aland, with Viktor Reichmann and on previous English editions by W.F. Arndt, F.W. Gingrich, and F.W. Danker." (3rd ed.) (672). University of Chicago Press: Chicago
<sup><sup>[FONT="][3][/FONT]</sup></sup>Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. 1996, c1989.
Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament : Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (1:751). United Bible societies: New York
<sup><sup>[FONT="][4][/FONT]</sup></sup>Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. 1996, c1989.
Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament : Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (1:751). United Bible societies: New York
adj. adjective, or adjectival
Str Strong’s Lexicon
LN Louw-Nida Greek-English Lexicon
+ I have cited every reference in regard to this lexeme discussed under this definition.
<sup><sup>[FONT="][5][/FONT]</sup></sup> Swanson, J. (1997).
Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Greek (New Testament) (electronic ed.). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
creo que queda mas que probado, ademas el sentido comun de que no es prudente meterse una sustancia intoxicante y potencialmente adictiva en el cuerpo
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Lo que ha quedado comprobado una vez más con esta participación tuya, es que la ignorancia que sale de la boca de los ignorantes, es lo que contamina al hombre.[/FONT]
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[FONT="]El sentido común es el menos común de los sentidos entre los santurrones.[/FONT]