Tormento eterno: La evidencia irrefutable

20 Marzo 2012
119
0
Rob Bell in his recent book Love Wins refers to the use of the nounkolasis in Matthew 25:46. He argues that the cognate verb kolazo “is a term from horticulture. It refers to the pruning and trimming of the branches of a plant so that it can flourish” (91). He then interprets the phrase eis kolasin aiōnion to “mean ‘a period of pruning’ or ‘a time of trimming,’ or an intense experience of correction” (91). He offers this as the preferred alternative to the more usual translation “eternal punishment” and goes on to suggest that in this context Jesus “isn’t talking about forever as we think of forever” (92). Rather “because ‘forever’ is not really a category the biblical writers used” (92), this phrase in Matthew 25:46 does not refer “eternal punishment” people experience because they have not served Jesus.[SUP]1[/SUP]
Is Bell’s exegesis and lexical interpretation of the noun kolasis in the context of Matthew 25:46 possible? Is it probable? Does it fit what we know of the meaning and use of this noun and its cognate verb? Although the question of the fate of the unsaved does not hinge on the solution to this question, this text does have significant implications because of its location in the teaching of Jesus.
Both the noun and verb occur in Classical Greek material as well as in the materials produced within the Hellenistic Jewish community. The basic sense of the word describes the action of cutting off, maiming. The Greek Classical Dictionary edited by Liddell and Scott lists one usage in several writings of the 4th-3rd Century BC Greek author Theophrastus in which these terms describe “a drastic method of checking the growth of the almond-tree.”[SUP]2[/SUP] While other authors may employ this verb and noun similarly, the writings of Theophrastus are the only example cited for this application of the word. So it would seem that Bell is correct in saying that the noun can mean pruning. However, the fact that the noun and verb can be used in horticultural contexts to describe various methods of pruning does not determine the meaning of the noun in Matthew 25:46. Context has a large say in discerning the significance of a particular word. Nothing in Jesus’ teaching about the final judgment in Mathew 25:31-46 as far as I can see makes any comparison with pruning. Rather the context has to do with a shepherd’s action of separating sheep from goats, as a metaphor of judgment. Once segregated, the “goats” are required to “depart into eternal punishment” (apeleusontai eis kolasin aiōnion), in contrast to the “sheep” who depart “into eternal life” (zōēn aiōnion).
The noun and verb far more frequently have the sense of chastise, punish, or suffer the loss of something.[SUP]3[/SUP] It may be as J. Schneider suggests[SUP]4[/SUP] that the maiming of slaves as a punishment is the connection between the action of cutting off and punishment. Whatever the explanation, the verb and noun in their figurative sense, i.e. non-literal meaning, come to signify the activity of punishment and chastisement. In Classical Greek usage the noun kolasis describes punishment that may be to the benefit of the one being punished.[SUP]5[/SUP] However, a few centuries later the sense that such punishment is temporary and corrective is no longer dominant. For example, Josephus speaks about Herod’s experience of being on trial and in danger of being sentenced to death, but through the intervention of Hyrcanus, the high priest, he was saved “from that danger and punishment (kolaseōs),”[SUP]6[/SUP] certainly not a reference to a temporary kind of punishment.
The nature of the punishment depends upon who is the subject, the reason for the action, and who is the recipient. Context then determines these elements. When applied to a tree, the action of cutting expressed in this verb becomes pruning, as an extended meaning. However, for the meaning of “pruning” to be considered the primary sense in Matthew 25:46, in my view, the context would have to indicate this clearly in some fashion. Otherwise the more usual idea of punishment or chastisement would prevail. Given the prior directive by the Son of Man in v.41, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire (eis to pur to aiōnion) prepared for the devil and his angels,” the context certainly suggests the idea of punishment with lasting consequences and administered by a divine agent.
Within the Greek translation of the Hebrew canon, the noun kolasis only occurs in Jeremiah and Ezekiel and the cognate verb occurs once in Daniel 6:12(13). Jeremiah (18:20) complains to God about the plots being made against him. “Is evil a recompense for good that together they spoke utterances against my soul and hid their punishment (kolasin) for me?”[SUP]7[/SUP] In Ezekiel this noun represents the Hebrew nounmikshol, which means a stumbling block generated in most cases by idolatry and leading to punishment for such iniquity (14:3,4,7; 18:30; 44:12). In the Supplement to Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexiconthe use of this noun in Greek Ezekiel is rendered as “that which brings about punishment, stumbling block.”[SUP]8[/SUP] In Ezekiel 14 and 18 the punishment that Yahweh brings upon Israel for its idolatry is death; in 44:12 Yahweh punishes the Levites for their participation in idolatry by never allowing them to act as priests in the new temple. It also occurs in Ezekiel 43:11 with the sense “receive their punishment” applied to Israel and describing Yahweh’s response to their sin. The prophet describes such punishment in 43:8 as “I wiped them out in my fury and by murder.” The emphasis seems to be upon a punishment that is fatal or results in permanent change, and administered by Yahweh, as divine agent, because of sinful action. The use of the verb in LXX Daniel 6:12a describes the punishment Daniel receives for praying to Yahweh, rather than to Darius, and his punishment is to be executed by confinement in a den of lions.
Schneider notes that “the idea of divine punishment and chastisement is widespread in antiquity” and that kolazein and kolasis “were fixed terms in sacral jurisprudence.”[SUP]9[/SUP] He notes in this regard inscriptions found on Phrygian and Lydian monuments dated to the imperial period (beginning with Augustus) in which god is the subject who punishes various individuals for impious acts. This perspective is similar to the sense found in other literature contemporary with the New Testament. In 2 Maccabees 4:38 the author recounts how Antiochus, the Seleucid emperor executed Andronicus, his deputy who had murdered Onias, the Jewish high priest. He concludes that “the Lord thus repaid him with the punishment (kolasin) he deserved.” According to the story in 3 Maccabees 7:10 the Jews, upon their miraculous rescue from attempts to by Ptolemy Philopator to annihilate them, were granted permission “that those from the race of the Judeans who had freely disobeyed the holy God and God’s law should obtain their deserved punishment (kolaseōs) through them,…” The result is that three hundred Jewish men are slain.
The verb and noun were used extensively in Wisdom of Solomon. The consistent theme is that Yahweh punishes those who commit idolatry by using the very animals that they worship in their idolatry as the means of their punishment. For example, in 16:1 the writer claims that “they were deservedly punished (ekolasthēsan) through similar creatures” because “they worship the most detestable animals” (15:18). God uses his creation “for punishment (kolasin) against the unrighteous” (16:24). In the case of “the impious and their impiety” the writer is sure that “what was done will be punished (kolasthēsetai) together with the one who did it” (14:10) and this is said in relationship to idolatry. He is also concerned that such punishments might lead people to accuse God of being unjust and so states that no king or prince can “look you in the face concerning those whom you have punished (ekolasas). But being righteous, you manage all things righteously considering it alien to your power to condemn anyone who does not deserve to be punished (kolasthēnai)” (12:14-15). Note in particular that God exercises appropriate judgment using such punishments and often they are fatal or extremely catastrophic (i.e. plagues in Egypt, including the killing of the firstborn).
Josephus, when commenting upon the various beliefs of the Pharisees, notes that they teach that “the soul of the good alone passes into another body, while the souls of the wicked suffer eternal punishments (aidiōi timōriai[SUP]10[/SUP] kolazesthai).”[SUP]11[/SUP] The term aidios means “eternal, everlasting.” Josephus himself was a Pharisee and so knew intimately their religious perspective.
Finally, a few examples from Philo, the Jewish expositor of the Pentateuch and a contemporary of Jesus. His usage of this terminology is too frequent for me to cite every case and so I focus on some of his usage inDe Vita Mosis I & II. When commenting upon the plague of gnats, he describes it as “a chastisement (kolazontos) sent by God” (I.108). When God applies the plagues solely to the Egyptians, Philo observes in the case of the frogs, that it was as “though it knew how to distinguish who should be punished (kolazesthai) and who should not” (I.144). When commenting on the story of the Edomites and their refusal to allow the Israelites to pass through their territory (Numbers 20:14ff), Philo has Moses address Israel and dissuade them from seeking vengeance, because even though “some particular persons deserve to be punished (kolasteoi)” Israel may not be the right party to exact such punishment” (I.244). Philo comments on the contents of the books that Moses wrote and says that in these writings he describes how “the impious were chastised (kolazesthai) with the said punishments (timōriais)[SUP]12[/SUP]” (II.57), as part of a larger motif which demonstrates “the punishment (kolaseōs) of the impious” and “the honouring of the just” (II.47). One other example occurs in Philo’s commentary on the story of the man who violates the Sabbath command (Numbers 15:32-36). Some Israelites arrested the man but did not execute him on the spot lest they take “upon themselves the ruler’s duty of punishment (kolazein).” So they arraigned him before Moses who, after consulting Yahweh, declared that the man should die. This becomes another example of the “punishment (timōrias) of the impious” (II. 214-29). These examples define punishment that results from sinful action and originating primarily with a divine agent. The punishments often are drastic and deadly. The punishment of evildoers is the responsibility of rulers who act for justice under God’s direction.
In the New Testament the verb occurs in Acts 4:21 and 2 Peter 2:9, while the noun is used in 1 John 4:18.[SUP]13[/SUP] In Acts 4 the Sanhedrin has held a trial for Peter and John because they are proclaiming Jesus as Messiah and doing miracles in his name. They cannot decide what to do so they threaten the apostles and do not punish (kolasōntai) them. What punishment might have been assigned is not stated, but it could have involved execution (as happened to Stephen a few chapters later in Acts 7). In 2 Peter 2:9 the writer declares that “the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment (kolazomenous).” Between the present and the future day of judgment the impious experience God’s punishment, perhaps in the light of their final destiny. As the review of usage demonstrates, the use of this verb in 2 Peter conforms to what we have discerned. The more difficult text to fathom is John’s statement in 1 John 4:18 that “there is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment (kolasin). The one who fears is not made perfect in love.” The previous verse assures that “we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him.” Raymond Brown comments that “To be afraid of God is already to be suffering the punishment of a negative judgment.”[SUP]14[/SUP] Plainly John is describing a consequence of present behaviour that is serious and only avoidable in a proper love of God.
To conclude, the claim that Matthew’s use of kolasis in 25:46 describes a temporary punishment that is designed to be corrective, i.e. a kind of pruning to stimulate a more appropriate response, does not seem to be borne out by the evidence of usage in the century before and after Jesus, given the context of Jesus’ teaching in that section of Matthew’s Gospel. The noun and verb both are used to describe divine punishments meted in accord with God’s judicial sense and in response to human impiety, both in this life and in the life to come. The usage in Wisdom of Solomon, Philo and Josephus is particularly telling, along with the Phrygian and Lydian inscriptions, I would suggest. Further the context of Matthew 25:31-46 is a judgment scene in which a divine figure, the Son of Man, from his “throne of glory” delivers divine justice to the righteous and the sinful. This context suits well the employment of kolasis in v.46. Lastly, the event described by Jesus seems rather climactic. Once the judgment is rendered, the outcomes proceed without any sense of re-ordering in the future. This may be an argument from silence, but it does recognize that Jesus in this story gives us no hint at future reversal of the judgment once given.
In my view Bell’s attempt to exegete this phrase and its context in Matthew 25 do not take into account the evidence of current usage in Jesus’ or Matthew’s day, nor the sense of the context and thus does not convince. Jesus’ message is clear – those who live in the category of “goats” will “go away to eternal punishment,” as harsh and difficult as this teaching might be to our ears. Thanks be to God that “goats” can become “sheep” through the atonement, grace and hope displayed in the cross and resurrection, if they will accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour.
Implications:



  1. We have only touched upon one small exegetical detail in the great debate about the meaning of Hell in the teaching of Jesus. While Jesus is not fixated on the topic, he does teach its reality and warn people that gaining the world is insufficient compensation for losing one’s life in eternity. It is a tough message to communicate with care, respect, and integrity, but the Gospel is incomplete without it. How do you deal with the urgency that Jesus’ teaching expresses about this reality?
  2. There is mystery in the character and actions of God that we cannot grasp. How mercy and justice find resolution in the grotesqueness of the crucifixion is a wonder created by God’s love. Is the idea of eternal punishment inconsistent with God’s love and God’s justice? How can we say this when Jesus, the God-man himself affirms a Gospel in which eternal life and eternal death are fundamental principles?

Footnotes:


  • [SUP]1[/SUP]Bell treats the noun phrase kolasin aiōnion in a rather unusual fashion, i.e. “an aionof kolazo” in which he combines the noun aion with the first person singular indicative verb form kolazo. He then wants to interpret the adjective aiōnion in the sense of “age” or “period of time” or some idea of “intensity of experience.” He says that “the phrase (sic) ‘aion of kolazo’ gets translated as ‘eternal punishment.’” Now Matthew did not use that un-Greek ‘phrase’ and so Bell’s criticism of this usual translation becomes suspect.
  • [SUP]2[/SUP]Liddell and Scott, Greek-English Lexicon (Oxford at the Clarendon Press, 1966), 971.
  • [SUP]3[/SUP]J. Schneider, “κολάζω,” in Theological Dictionary of the New Testament Volume IIIedited by Gerhard Kittel (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., 1965), 814, indicates the verb essentially means “maiming, cutting off.”
  • [SUP]4[/SUP]Ibid.
  • [SUP]5[/SUP]Richard Trench, Synonyms of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1973), 24-26.
  • [SUP]6[/SUP]Josephus, Antiquities XV,16.
  • [SUP]7[/SUP]This is the translation provided in A New English Translation of the Septuagint. The Greek text is somewhat different from the Hebrew text in this verse. However, the sense of “punishment” for this noun seems warranted from the context.
  • [SUP]8[/SUP]H.Liddell and R. Scott, Greek-English Lexicon, 2083.
  • [SUP]9[/SUP]J. Schneider, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Vol. III, 814.
  • [SUP]10[/SUP]The noun timōria describes retribution or vengeance.
  • [SUP]11[/SUP]Josephus, Bellum II.163.
  • [SUP]12[/SUP]Note the same conjunction of terms here as in Josephus, Bellum II.163 cited above.
  • [SUP]13[/SUP]There is a variant reading in 1 Peter 2:20 where in some manuscriptskolaphizomenoi (being beaten) is replaced by kolazomenoi (being punished). Both make sense in the passage. The advantage of the first is that it links back to Jesus’ experience of being beaten at his crucifixion. While supported by papyrus 72, the alternative reading is probably due to misreading, i.e. the omission of the two Greek letters ‘phi and iota’.
  • [SUP]14[/SUP]Raymond Brown, The Epistles of John (Garden City, NY: Doubleday & Company, 1982), 562.
 
Re: Tormento eterno: La evidencia irrefutable


Rob Bell in his recent book Love Wins refers to the use of the nounkolasis in Matthew 25:46. He argues that the cognate verb kolazo “is a term from horticulture. It refers to the pruning and trimming of the branches of a plant so that it can flourish” (91). He then interprets the phrase eis kolasin aiōnion to “mean ‘a period of pruning’ or ‘a time of trimming,’ or an intense experience of correction” (91). He offers this as the preferred alternative to the more usual translation “eternal punishment” and goes on to suggest that in this context Jesus “isn’t talking about forever as we think of forever” (92). Rather “because ‘forever’ is not really a category the biblical writers used” (92), this phrase in Matthew 25:46 does not refer “eternal punishment” people experience because they have not served Jesus.[SUP]1[/SUP]
Is Bell’s exegesis and lexical interpretation of the noun kolasis in the context of Matthew 25:46 possible? Is it probable? Does it fit what we know of the meaning and use of this noun and its cognate verb? Although the question of the fate of the unsaved does not hinge on the solution to this question, this text does have significant implications because of its location in the teaching of Jesus.
Both the noun and verb occur in Classical Greek material as well as in the materials produced within the Hellenistic Jewish community. The basic sense of the word describes the action of cutting off, maiming. The Greek Classical Dictionary edited by Liddell and Scott lists one usage in several writings of the 4th-3rd Century BC Greek author Theophrastus in which these terms describe “a drastic method of checking the growth of the almond-tree.”[SUP]2[/SUP] While other authors may employ this verb and noun similarly, the writings of Theophrastus are the only example cited for this application of the word. So it would seem that Bell is correct in saying that the noun can mean pruning. However, the fact that the noun and verb can be used in horticultural contexts to describe various methods of pruning does not determine the meaning of the noun in Matthew 25:46. Context has a large say in discerning the significance of a particular word. Nothing in Jesus’ teaching about the final judgment in Mathew 25:31-46 as far as I can see makes any comparison with pruning. Rather the context has to do with a shepherd’s action of separating sheep from goats, as a metaphor of judgment. Once segregated, the “goats” are required to “depart into eternal punishment” (apeleusontai eis kolasin aiōnion), in contrast to the “sheep” who depart “into eternal life” (zōēn aiōnion).
The noun and verb far more frequently have the sense of chastise, punish, or suffer the loss of something.[SUP]3[/SUP] It may be as J. Schneider suggests[SUP]4[/SUP] that the maiming of slaves as a punishment is the connection between the action of cutting off and punishment. Whatever the explanation, the verb and noun in their figurative sense, i.e. non-literal meaning, come to signify the activity of punishment and chastisement. In Classical Greek usage the noun kolasis describes punishment that may be to the benefit of the one being punished.[SUP]5[/SUP] However, a few centuries later the sense that such punishment is temporary and corrective is no longer dominant. For example, Josephus speaks about Herod’s experience of being on trial and in danger of being sentenced to death, but through the intervention of Hyrcanus, the high priest, he was saved “from that danger and punishment (kolaseōs),”[SUP]6[/SUP] certainly not a reference to a temporary kind of punishment.
The nature of the punishment depends upon who is the subject, the reason for the action, and who is the recipient. Context then determines these elements. When applied to a tree, the action of cutting expressed in this verb becomes pruning, as an extended meaning. However, for the meaning of “pruning” to be considered the primary sense in Matthew 25:46, in my view, the context would have to indicate this clearly in some fashion. Otherwise the more usual idea of punishment or chastisement would prevail. Given the prior directive by the Son of Man in v.41, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire (eis to pur to aiōnion) prepared for the devil and his angels,” the context certainly suggests the idea of punishment with lasting consequences and administered by a divine agent.
Within the Greek translation of the Hebrew canon, the noun kolasis only occurs in Jeremiah and Ezekiel and the cognate verb occurs once in Daniel 6:12(13). Jeremiah (18:20) complains to God about the plots being made against him. “Is evil a recompense for good that together they spoke utterances against my soul and hid their punishment (kolasin) for me?”[SUP]7[/SUP] In Ezekiel this noun represents the Hebrew nounmikshol, which means a stumbling block generated in most cases by idolatry and leading to punishment for such iniquity (14:3,4,7; 18:30; 44:12). In the Supplement to Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexiconthe use of this noun in Greek Ezekiel is rendered as “that which brings about punishment, stumbling block.”[SUP]8[/SUP] In Ezekiel 14 and 18 the punishment that Yahweh brings upon Israel for its idolatry is death; in 44:12 Yahweh punishes the Levites for their participation in idolatry by never allowing them to act as priests in the new temple. It also occurs in Ezekiel 43:11 with the sense “receive their punishment” applied to Israel and describing Yahweh’s response to their sin. The prophet describes such punishment in 43:8 as “I wiped them out in my fury and by murder.” The emphasis seems to be upon a punishment that is fatal or results in permanent change, and administered by Yahweh, as divine agent, because of sinful action. The use of the verb in LXX Daniel 6:12a describes the punishment Daniel receives for praying to Yahweh, rather than to Darius, and his punishment is to be executed by confinement in a den of lions.
Schneider notes that “the idea of divine punishment and chastisement is widespread in antiquity” and that kolazein and kolasis “were fixed terms in sacral jurisprudence.”[SUP]9[/SUP] He notes in this regard inscriptions found on Phrygian and Lydian monuments dated to the imperial period (beginning with Augustus) in which god is the subject who punishes various individuals for impious acts. This perspective is similar to the sense found in other literature contemporary with the New Testament. In 2 Maccabees 4:38 the author recounts how Antiochus, the Seleucid emperor executed Andronicus, his deputy who had murdered Onias, the Jewish high priest. He concludes that “the Lord thus repaid him with the punishment (kolasin) he deserved.” According to the story in 3 Maccabees 7:10 the Jews, upon their miraculous rescue from attempts to by Ptolemy Philopator to annihilate them, were granted permission “that those from the race of the Judeans who had freely disobeyed the holy God and God’s law should obtain their deserved punishment (kolaseōs) through them,…” The result is that three hundred Jewish men are slain.
The verb and noun were used extensively in Wisdom of Solomon. The consistent theme is that Yahweh punishes those who commit idolatry by using the very animals that they worship in their idolatry as the means of their punishment. For example, in 16:1 the writer claims that “they were deservedly punished (ekolasthēsan) through similar creatures” because “they worship the most detestable animals” (15:18). God uses his creation “for punishment (kolasin) against the unrighteous” (16:24). In the case of “the impious and their impiety” the writer is sure that “what was done will be punished (kolasthēsetai) together with the one who did it” (14:10) and this is said in relationship to idolatry. He is also concerned that such punishments might lead people to accuse God of being unjust and so states that no king or prince can “look you in the face concerning those whom you have punished (ekolasas). But being righteous, you manage all things righteously considering it alien to your power to condemn anyone who does not deserve to be punished (kolasthēnai)” (12:14-15). Note in particular that God exercises appropriate judgment using such punishments and often they are fatal or extremely catastrophic (i.e. plagues in Egypt, including the killing of the firstborn).
Josephus, when commenting upon the various beliefs of the Pharisees, notes that they teach that “the soul of the good alone passes into another body, while the souls of the wicked suffer eternal punishments (aidiōi timōriai[SUP]10[/SUP] kolazesthai).”[SUP]11[/SUP] The term aidios means “eternal, everlasting.” Josephus himself was a Pharisee and so knew intimately their religious perspective.
Finally, a few examples from Philo, the Jewish expositor of the Pentateuch and a contemporary of Jesus. His usage of this terminology is too frequent for me to cite every case and so I focus on some of his usage inDe Vita Mosis I & II. When commenting upon the plague of gnats, he describes it as “a chastisement (kolazontos) sent by God” (I.108). When God applies the plagues solely to the Egyptians, Philo observes in the case of the frogs, that it was as “though it knew how to distinguish who should be punished (kolazesthai) and who should not” (I.144). When commenting on the story of the Edomites and their refusal to allow the Israelites to pass through their territory (Numbers 20:14ff), Philo has Moses address Israel and dissuade them from seeking vengeance, because even though “some particular persons deserve to be punished (kolasteoi)” Israel may not be the right party to exact such punishment” (I.244). Philo comments on the contents of the books that Moses wrote and says that in these writings he describes how “the impious were chastised (kolazesthai) with the said punishments (timōriais)[SUP]12[/SUP]” (II.57), as part of a larger motif which demonstrates “the punishment (kolaseōs) of the impious” and “the honouring of the just” (II.47). One other example occurs in Philo’s commentary on the story of the man who violates the Sabbath command (Numbers 15:32-36). Some Israelites arrested the man but did not execute him on the spot lest they take “upon themselves the ruler’s duty of punishment (kolazein).” So they arraigned him before Moses who, after consulting Yahweh, declared that the man should die. This becomes another example of the “punishment (timōrias) of the impious” (II. 214-29). These examples define punishment that results from sinful action and originating primarily with a divine agent. The punishments often are drastic and deadly. The punishment of evildoers is the responsibility of rulers who act for justice under God’s direction.
In the New Testament the verb occurs in Acts 4:21 and 2 Peter 2:9, while the noun is used in 1 John 4:18.[SUP]13[/SUP] In Acts 4 the Sanhedrin has held a trial for Peter and John because they are proclaiming Jesus as Messiah and doing miracles in his name. They cannot decide what to do so they threaten the apostles and do not punish (kolasōntai) them. What punishment might have been assigned is not stated, but it could have involved execution (as happened to Stephen a few chapters later in Acts 7). In 2 Peter 2:9 the writer declares that “the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment (kolazomenous).” Between the present and the future day of judgment the impious experience God’s punishment, perhaps in the light of their final destiny. As the review of usage demonstrates, the use of this verb in 2 Peter conforms to what we have discerned. The more difficult text to fathom is John’s statement in 1 John 4:18 that “there is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment (kolasin). The one who fears is not made perfect in love.” The previous verse assures that “we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him.” Raymond Brown comments that “To be afraid of God is already to be suffering the punishment of a negative judgment.”[SUP]14[/SUP] Plainly John is describing a consequence of present behaviour that is serious and only avoidable in a proper love of God.
To conclude, the claim that Matthew’s use of kolasis in 25:46 describes a temporary punishment that is designed to be corrective, i.e. a kind of pruning to stimulate a more appropriate response, does not seem to be borne out by the evidence of usage in the century before and after Jesus, given the context of Jesus’ teaching in that section of Matthew’s Gospel. The noun and verb both are used to describe divine punishments meted in accord with God’s judicial sense and in response to human impiety, both in this life and in the life to come. The usage in Wisdom of Solomon, Philo and Josephus is particularly telling, along with the Phrygian and Lydian inscriptions, I would suggest. Further the context of Matthew 25:31-46 is a judgment scene in which a divine figure, the Son of Man, from his “throne of glory” delivers divine justice to the righteous and the sinful. This context suits well the employment of kolasis in v.46. Lastly, the event described by Jesus seems rather climactic. Once the judgment is rendered, the outcomes proceed without any sense of re-ordering in the future. This may be an argument from silence, but it does recognize that Jesus in this story gives us no hint at future reversal of the judgment once given.
In my view Bell’s attempt to exegete this phrase and its context in Matthew 25 do not take into account the evidence of current usage in Jesus’ or Matthew’s day, nor the sense of the context and thus does not convince. Jesus’ message is clear – those who live in the category of “goats” will “go away to eternal punishment,” as harsh and difficult as this teaching might be to our ears. Thanks be to God that “goats” can become “sheep” through the atonement, grace and hope displayed in the cross and resurrection, if they will accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour.
Implications:



  1. We have only touched upon one small exegetical detail in the great debate about the meaning of Hell in the teaching of Jesus. While Jesus is not fixated on the topic, he does teach its reality and warn people that gaining the world is insufficient compensation for losing one’s life in eternity. It is a tough message to communicate with care, respect, and integrity, but the Gospel is incomplete without it. How do you deal with the urgency that Jesus’ teaching expresses about this reality?
  2. There is mystery in the character and actions of God that we cannot grasp. How mercy and justice find resolution in the grotesqueness of the crucifixion is a wonder created by God’s love. Is the idea of eternal punishment inconsistent with God’s love and God’s justice? How can we say this when Jesus, the God-man himself affirms a Gospel in which eternal life and eternal death are fundamental principles?

Footnotes:


  • [SUP]1[/SUP]Bell treats the noun phrase kolasin aiōnion in a rather unusual fashion, i.e. “an aionof kolazo” in which he combines the noun aion with the first person singular indicative verb form kolazo. He then wants to interpret the adjective aiōnion in the sense of “age” or “period of time” or some idea of “intensity of experience.” He says that “the phrase (sic) ‘aion of kolazo’ gets translated as ‘eternal punishment.’” Now Matthew did not use that un-Greek ‘phrase’ and so Bell’s criticism of this usual translation becomes suspect.
  • [SUP]2[/SUP]Liddell and Scott, Greek-English Lexicon (Oxford at the Clarendon Press, 1966), 971.
  • [SUP]3[/SUP]J. Schneider, “κολάζω,” in Theological Dictionary of the New Testament Volume IIIedited by Gerhard Kittel (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., 1965), 814, indicates the verb essentially means “maiming, cutting off.”
  • [SUP]4[/SUP]Ibid.
  • [SUP]5[/SUP]Richard Trench, Synonyms of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1973), 24-26.
  • [SUP]6[/SUP]Josephus, Antiquities XV,16.
  • [SUP]7[/SUP]This is the translation provided in A New English Translation of the Septuagint. The Greek text is somewhat different from the Hebrew text in this verse. However, the sense of “punishment” for this noun seems warranted from the context.
  • [SUP]8[/SUP]H.Liddell and R. Scott, Greek-English Lexicon, 2083.
  • [SUP]9[/SUP]J. Schneider, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Vol. III, 814.
  • [SUP]10[/SUP]The noun timōria describes retribution or vengeance.
  • [SUP]11[/SUP]Josephus, Bellum II.163.
  • [SUP]12[/SUP]Note the same conjunction of terms here as in Josephus, Bellum II.163 cited above.
  • [SUP]13[/SUP]There is a variant reading in 1 Peter 2:20 where in some manuscriptskolaphizomenoi (being beaten) is replaced by kolazomenoi (being punished). Both make sense in the passage. The advantage of the first is that it links back to Jesus’ experience of being beaten at his crucifixion. While supported by papyrus 72, the alternative reading is probably due to misreading, i.e. the omission of the two Greek letters ‘phi and iota’.
  • [SUP]14[/SUP]Raymond Brown, The Epistles of John (Garden City, NY: Doubleday & Company, 1982), 562.

[h=1]Does Love Win or God Win? – A Review of “Love Wins”[/h]Published on <abbr class="published entry-date" title="2011-05-12T10:38:04-0700" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-image: initial; cursor: inherit; ">Thursday, May 12, 2011</abbr> in Book Reviews and Feature Article. 1 CommentTags: heaven, hell, rob bell, universalism.
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Rob Bell. Love Wins. A Book about Heaven, Hell and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived. New York: HarperOne, 2011. 202 pages.
Rob Bell, founding pastor of Mars Hill Bible Church, Grand Rapids, Michigan, raises and seeks to answer some tough questions about God’s intention and desire for all of his human creatures and earthly creation. As his title discloses, Bell proposes that because God desires all human beings to be saved, that this desire must in some way be realized. If it does not happen within history, then in some way it must happen beyond history, otherwise God is not the all-powerful, sovereign being that orthodox theology claims. The result is that theoretically all human beings eventually will participate in God’s restored earth.
On pages 102-111 he describes four perspectives that Christians have held through history about the destiny of unbelievers. Some believe we have one life in which to choose Jesus and if we do not, we spend eternity in hell. Or as Bell says, "God in the end doesn’t get what God wants" (103). But in Bell’s view God "doesn’t give up until everything that was lost is found. This God simply doesn’t give up. Ever" (101). He speculates about a second perspective in which people who choose evil eventually extinguish the image of God within themselves and "given enough time, some people could eventually move into a new state, one in which they were in essence ‘formerly human’ or ‘posthuman’ or even ‘ex-human’" (105-106). Bell does not give this perspective much attention. And then he mentions a third position that holds there are two destinations, but "insist(s) that there must be some kind of ‘second chance’ for those who don’t believe in Jesus in this lifetime" (106). And lastly, he mentions a view in which "there will be endless opportunities in an endless amount of time for people to say yes to God. As long as it takes, in other words" (106-107). If there is enough time, surely everyone will "turn to God and find themselves in the joy and peace of God’s presence" (107).[SUP]1[/SUP]
Bell then cites biblical texts (e.g. Matthew 19; Acts 3; Colossians 1) which talk about God "renewing all things" or "restoring everything" or "reconciling all things." He follows this with reference to past theologians such as Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, and Eusebius who affirmed the idea that "love wins." And then he reminds us that Jerome, Basil and Augustine noted that most or many people "believed in the ultimate reconciliation of all people to God" (108). He concludes by asserting that "at the center (sic.) of the Christian tradition since the first church have been a number who insist that history is not tragic, hell is not forever, and love, in the end, wins and all will be reconciled to God" (109). He insists that "serious, orthodox followers of Jesus have answered these questions in a number of different ways" (109). And also he asserts that "some [Gospel] stories are better than others" (110), particularly the one which is "everybody enjoys God’s good world" (111). Finally then he says that "whatever objections a person might have to this story, and there are many, one has to admit that it is fitting, proper, and Christian to long for it….To shun, censor, or ostracize someone for holding this belief is to fail to extend grace to each other in a discussion that has had plenty of room for varied perspectives for hundreds of years now" (111).[SUP]2[/SUP]
It seems then, from the title of his book and from the perspective he develops, Bell desires to be accepted as "orthodox," even though he believes and proclaims the story that says everybody will end up enjoying God’s good world. His brief comments on the last two chapters of Revelation (112-114) underscore his perspective when he asks "How could someone choose another way with a universe of love and joy and peace right in front of them – all of it theirs if they would simply leave behind the old ways and receive the new life of the new city in the new world?" He affirms that people do make that choice. But then he observes that the gates of the city in the new world are "never shut" and interprets this to mean that "if the gates are never shut, then people are free to come and go" (115). "Keeping the gates open" for him seems to be a metaphor for God’s openness to reconciliation. Bell wants to keep the options open, i.e. "leave plenty of room for all kinds of those possibilities" (116). We cannot be dogmatic on these issues according to Bell because "no one has been to and then returned with hard, empirical evidence" (116), although here he may be overlooking the unique situation of Jesus, the only one who has seen the Father, as John says, and can "declare him" (John 1:18) and the only one who has experienced resurrection from the dead.
Similarly with respect to the spiritual destiny of those involved in other religions Bell interprets John 14:6 as Jesus’ declaration that "he, and he alone, is saving everybody. And then he leaves the door way, way open, creating all sorts of possibilities. He is as narrow as himself and as wide as the universe" (155). Apart from his lack of clarity as to what this means and how this spiritual inclusivity works, Bell wants to interpret Jesus and his teaching in some rather unusual ways. While affirming baptism and communion (or eucharist), he says that these rituals are true for us, because they are true for everybody. They unite us, because they unite everybody. These are signs, glimpses, and tastes of what is true for all people in all places at all times – we simply name the mystery present in all the world, the gospel already announced to every creature under heaven (157).
Again, I find Bell’s communication here rather opaque. How are these things true for "all people in all places at all times" if there is no conscious understanding of, acceptance of and participation in the very truth they represent? In what ways has the Gospel been announced to every creature under heaven such that they are now participating in the things expressed by baptism and communion? Sure "people come to Jesus in all sorts of ways" (158), but do they do this without knowing him personally, or without knowing his name (159)?
Bell’s last major chapter is entitled "The Good News is Better Than That." Building his ideas from the Parable of the Two Sons in Luke 15, he excoriates a "goat gospel" which describes God as "a cruel mean, vicious tormentor" (174), comparing him to an abusive parent. According to Bell this Gospel means that the God who consigns sinners to hell becomes "somebody totally different the moment you die" (174). Rather Bell argues for a Gospel that tells us that God in his very essence is love. "God has no desire to inflict pain or agony on anyone" (177). It is our refusal of God’s love "which creates what we call hell" (177). He argues that "Jesus invites us into that relationship, the one at the center (sic) of the universe" (178), which is not the same, according to Bell, as "getting into heaven." So according to Bell "Life has never been about just ‘getting in.’ It’s about thriving in God’s good world" (179). For Bell God’s "forgiveness is unilateral. God isn’t waiting for us to get it together, to clean up, shape up, get up – God has already done it" (189). This is true, but the Gospel also talks about our need for repentance and the appropriation of God’s gift of forgiveness. God has done what only God can do; but as Jesus says, we do need to "repent and believe the good news" (Mark 1:15). Is it true as Bell says that "everyone is already at the party,.." (190)? Is this what Jesus meant in Luke 15?
In my opinion, Bell’s exegesis of key biblical texts fails to convince, his interpretation of terms (e.g. the word "age") incomplete, and his use of biblical data to support his viewpoint very selective.
First, let’s consider some texts that he interprets in support of his thesis that "love wins." Bell builds several of his chapters around the interpretation of stories about Jesus’ interactions with people or parables that he relates. In his second chapter "Here is the New There" Bell focuses upon the question of the rich man in Matthew 19:16 "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" (26). Bell notes that Jesus, only in Matthew’s account, responds by saying "if you want to enter life,[SUP]3[/SUP] keep the commandments." He notes that in this interchange important words such as "eternal life," "treasure," "heaven" were used, but they "weren’t used in the ways that many Christians use them" (29). We might say, of course not! Jesus was talking to a Jewish person somewhere in Galilee in the early first century before his death and resurrection. We have to understand these words first in that setting before we discern how the Gospel writer, composing his account of Jesus’ ministry, understood them from within a post-resurrection, Christian framework, while remaining true to the essence of Jesus’ message. This approach does not mean that the Christian framework distorts Jesus’ teaching, but it does mean that we have to negotiate carefully the meaning of Jesus’ language in its pre- and post-resurrection setting. Further, Bell ignores that Jesus’ response to the rich man ultimately is "follow me" (19:21; Mark 10:21; Lk. 18:22). The man’s "treasure in heaven" would be not due only to his obedience to the Ten Commandments, but rather primarily to his acceptance of Jesus as authoritative teacher and his willingness to obey him. The specific things Jesus asks him to do are not the most important point, but rather it is Jesus’ insistence that he recognize who he is and follow him. Jesus has not, as Bell proposes, blown "a perfectly good ‘evangelistic’ opportunity" (29). Jesus in fact is expressing the good news if the rich man will hear it. Following Jesus, the only "Good One", i.e. God himself, is the key to "entering life," the kind of life that lasts eternally.
Another text that Bell refers to several times is the story about the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16. He affirms that Jesus taught the concept of hell, agreeing that human evil has to be defined in violent, over-the-top, hyperbolic language (73). He talks about "the surreal nature of the stories [Jesus] tells" (74). Now Bell urges his readers to understand the meaning of this story in terms of "whatever the meaning was for Jesus’ first listeners" (75). In the immediate context Jesus has criticized the Pharisees for justifying themselves before people, but ignoring the reality that God is one who "knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God’s sight" (Luke 16:15). According to Bell Jesus was warning the religious leaders about the serious consequences "for ignoring the Lazaruses outside their gates. To reject those Lazaruses was to reject God" (76). Bell concludes that this is a "brilliant, surreal, poignant, subversive loaded story" (76). True, but what does it mean? After several pages of comments Bell concludes that Jesus is affirming "there are all kinds of hells, because there are all kinds of ways to resist and reject all that is good and true and beautiful and human now, in this life, and so we can only assume we can do the same in the next" (79). "There is hell now, and there is hell later, and Jesus teaches us to take both seriously" (79).
Undoubtedly, Jesus emphasized the reality of human accountability and divine judgment, particularly in reference to the rejection of him and his mission. There would be a resurrection of one who would return to tell the tale, namely Jesus himself, but even so not all would respond in belief and submission. So behaviour in this life has consequences beyond the grave – this surely is a significant part of Jesus’ message to the religious leaders through this story. Did the rich man regard his human life as ‘hell’? We have no evidence in the story that this was the case. If any character in the story experienced human existence in this way, it was Lazarus, even though he had faith in God. These dimensions of the story are not reflected in Bell’s analysis, but they do contribute to our understanding of the relationship between human behaviour in this age and the nature of our existence in the life to come. The use of the expression "great chasm" (16:26) describes the inability of people in the age to come to move from one destination to another, i.e. from the place of agony and torture in Hades to "the side of Abraham" (16:22). In this story Jesus holds out no hope of changed destiny in the age to come. This perspective clashes with Bell’s more restricted reading that Jesus "talked about hell to very religious people to warn them about the consequences of straying from their God-given calling and identity to show the world God’s love" (82). While such people may have considered themselves chosen, in fact their refusal to accept God’s covenant-reforming action represented in Jesus demonstrates that their father is the devil (John 8:44). Strong language but it indicates that even Jewish religious leaders in Jesus’ view had no privileged status with God outside of a relationship with Jesus, even if they claimed to have Abraham as their father. In this regard Bell’s claim that "people believing the right or wrong things isn’t his [Jesus’] point" (82) is insufficient to describe Jesus’ concern. The only way such people could be transformed into "generous, loving people through whom God could show the world what God’s love looks like in flesh and blood" (83) is by responding to Jesus himself, not just carrying on in their normal religious practices.
Bell uses Jesus’ words about Sodom and Gomorrah to argue that "there is still hope" for these cities that experienced such devastating divine judgment. Jesus said that "it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for you" (84). But is Jesus offering hope for those who died in the judgment described in Genesis 19? Is this what Ezekiel prophesied in Ezekiel 16 when he talked about the restoration of these cities?[SUP]4[/SUP] So here again we encounter the broader issues of hermeneutics. In Matthew 10 Jesus condemns the residents of Capernaum for refusing to acknowledge his Messianic status and mission. By rejecting him they are doing something more sinister than the sinful actions of Sodom and Gomorrah. Jesus used the classic device of irony to indicate that if they thought God’s judgment upon Sodom and Gomorrah was justified, as horrific as it was, this is nothing compared to God’s response to their rejection of his Messiah Jesus. Sodom and Gomorrah will experience God’s final judgment, but the people of Capernaum who reject the Messiah will experience it even more severely.
On page 87 Bell lists an impressive number of OT texts that speak of God’s promise to restore Israel. He interprets these to demonstrate that God’s goal is not judgment, but correction and reconciliation. What God does for Israel, he will do for all. Again, however, has Bell got it right? Such promises of restoration may be fulfilled in terms of the opportunity offered to Israel in the Messiah, both in his first and second comings. Paul seems to relate these kinds of promises to God’s actions as a result of the Messiah (Romans 11:25-32) and anticipates opportunity for Israel to respond and be forgiven at some future point before God concludes "this age." We have no warrant from these texts to consider these events happening in the "age to come."
Bell attempts to use Paul’s action of handing a person over to Satan for the purpose of spiritual recovery as another piece of evidence that in the end "love wins." How confident is Paul that when he orders churches to turn "over to Satan for the destruction of the sinful nature" (90, quoting 1 Corinthians 5:5, with reference to1 Timothy 1:20) that good will result from this? In other words "Paul is convinced, that wrongdoers will become right doers" (91). We do have one case where that result occurs (at least this is how many commentators understand Paul’s reference in 2 Corinthians 2:6-8). However, although Paul may have this intent in mind for all such cases, he cannot predict that in fact this will always be the outcome. If the Alexander of 1 Timothy 1:20 is the same Alexander mentioned in 2 Timothy 4:14, Paul indicates that God will hold him accountable for his opposition to the Gospel. Again the texts do not seem to bear the weight of Bell’s desired exegetical outcome.
In his seventh chapter entitled "The Good News is Better Than That" Bell derives some principles from his interpretation of the parable of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15:12-32, one of the longest and most developed stories Jesus tells. Bell’s goal in this chapter is to establish a viable story of the Gospel. The point of this story, according to Bell, is that "people get what they don’t deserve" (168). Within this one story he identifies three different stories, one told by each brother and one by the father. The difference between the story the father tells and those recounted by the brothers is "the difference between heaven and hell" (169). Somehow "in this story, heaven and hell are within each other, intertwined, interwoven, bumping up against each other" (170). He claims that the older brother is "at the party" but refusing to participate. Because the older son refuses "to trust God’s retelling" of his story, he is experiencing hell (170). Bell concludes that the key message of the father figure in the story is that "we are all going to be fine. Of all of the conceptions of the divine, of all of the language Jesus could put on the lips of the God character in this story he tells, that’s what he has the father say" (172). However, as Bell himself says, the older brother refuses to accept the story his father is telling. We have no sense in the story that he changes his mind and as a result he does not participate in the party, even though it is happening within his father’s house.
How should we respond to such an interpretation of this parable? The insight that three different stories are being recounted in this parable is helpful. The father does function as the God character. But whom do the sons represent? The context of Luke 14-15 involves Jesus’ interactions with Jewish religious leaders, as he responds to their questions and criticisms. In particular Jesus has addressed the question of who will in fact "eat bread in the kingdom" and thus experience "the resurrection of the just." The religious leaders are critical of Jesus’ acceptance of tax-collectors and sinners into his Messianic movement (15:2-3). He tells the parable of the Great Banquet (14:15-24), concluding that "not one of those men invited will taste my banquet" (14:24). He makes it very personal. The nature of discipleship and its personal costs becomes the focus in 14:25-33, with concluding comments about the worthlessness of salt that no longer possesses the properties of salt (14:34-35). "It is thrown away!"
Then in Luke 15 the Pharisees articulate their complaint: "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them" (15:2). Three parables follow, each focusing upon the fierce determination to find a lost coin, sheep and son and the great rejoicing that happens when the lost is found. So these three parables are a critique of the Pharisees’ evaluation of Jesus’ interaction with sinners and tax-collectors. In the parable of the two sons, Jesus compares the Pharisees and their attitude with that of the older son. They in fact become critics of God in criticizing Jesus, whose invitation is the expression of God’s love for lost people. Their refusal to accept Jesus and his mission means that they snub God and will not participate in the great Messianic banquet, despite their sense of self-assured chosen-ness. I do not think Bell builds his exegesis from Luke’s explicit gospel context.
Bell then moves into a more speculative question. He invites his readers to consider whether a Gospel that portrays God as on the one hand loving and inviting and on the other judging and tormenting is the true Gospel. He puts it this way: "Does God become somebody totally different the moment you die?" (174). He claims that this kind of Gospel means that "many people, especially Christians…don’t love God" (174). Rather for Bell the Gospel story is that "God has no desire to inflict pain or agony on anyone" (177). It is our refusal of God’s love that "moves us away from it…and that will, by very definition, be an increasingly unloving, hellish reality" (177). Bell seems to be arguing that people create their own hell because of what they believe. The essence of the Gospel is God’s invitation into a relationship, not entrance into heaven. No one needs to be rescued from God because He is the rescuer (182).
While this speculation may be helpful, does it in fact relate to or derive from the story of the father and the two sons that Jesus has told? We noted that the primary issue Jesus addressed was the criticism by the Pharisees of his social interaction with sinners and tax-collectors, actions they deemed inconsistent with someone claiming to be Messiah. In the character of the father Jesus affirms God’s merciful inclusion of sinners and tax-collectors in his new kingdom action, if they repent and seek God by accepting Jesus’ claims. The oldest son, who represents the Jewish religious leaders, also receives the same invitation based upon the same terms. However, if they refuse the father’s invitation, it is unclear what their future situation will be, because Jesus did not address that in this parable, despite Bell’s speculation.
What generally did Jesus teach about those who refuse to accept God’s will in Jesus? The earlier story in Luke 14 about the person who hosts a banquet focuses upon the theme of invitation and rejection. Jesus stated clearly that "none of those men invited shall taste my banquet" (14:26). So we have an idea about the destiny of the older son, if he persists in rejecting the overtures of his father – he will have no place in the banquet. Now whether we hold the father responsible for this or the older son is perhaps a moot point. The father has set the rules for participating in the party and the older son has refused to accept them. God is rescuer, but he will not change the rules under which rescue is available. The older son could be rescued, but he refuses the invitation.
Secondly, Bell’s analysis of the meaning of specific terms leaves several questions unanswered. Bell argues that this term zōē aiōnios (translated as "eternal life" in the NIV) does not mean "eternal" in the sense of forever, but rather "life in the age to come" in contrast to the current age of space-time history. In Matthew 19 Jesus did not define what life in the age to come would be like or exactly where it would be. Bell argues that the normal Jewish perception of life in the age to come is a continuation of life as it is on the earth, but experienced under God’s righteous rule. This may be, but we read in some Second Temple Jewish documents other visions of what life in the age to come would entail. Some consider the messianic age to be an interim phase between this age and the age to come. Others portray the messianic age to be identified with the age to come. Although the means by which "this age" is destroyed and the transformation of the earth for the "age to come" occurs is not always discussed, a common expectation in Judaism was that it would be annihilation by fire.[SUP]5[/SUP] In other words there were various eschatological beliefs in Judaism during Jesus’ day. We cannot tell just from the phrase zōē aiōnios exactly what ideas the rich man held about this future period. Jesus goes on to add some clarification in the passage and elsewhere. We should not assume that Jesus merely adopted Jewish terminology or beliefs without modifying them. Jesus, for example, does not affirm explicitly where this future life will occur. Bell says that Jewish people in the first century "did not talk about a future life somewhere else, because they anticipated a coming day when the world would be restored, renewed, and redeemed and there would be peace on earth" (40).
Bell insists that the rich man in Matthew 16 or Mark 10 "isn’t asking about how to go to heaven when he dies. This wasn’t a concern for the man or Jesus" (30). Rather, he wants to be involved in God’s new day, the age to come. Now Bell is correct that the term "heaven" is not used for instance in Mark 10:19. However, as you read through Jesus’ comments and interactions with his disciples following his encounter with the rich man and his failure to respond positively, the disciples seem to understand the man’s concern in precisely those terms. They ask Jesus "who then can be saved" (Mark 10:25) if the rich can’t? Jesus assures them that in the "renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne….everyone who has left houses…for my sake…will inherit eternal life[SUP]6[/SUP]" (vs.28-30). Note that Jesus used the same phrase as the rich man and refers by this to a future time when the Son of Man is victorious, and seems to understand this as "salvation." While this may not exactly be equivalent to our term heaven, it certainly points to a context very different from this current life and a context which usually is identified with the second coming of Jesus, after which all things are renewed.
Further there is the expression "unto the ages of the ages" used in the New Testament in 1 Peter 4:11 (cf. 1 Peter 5:11; 1 Timothy 1:17; Ephesians 3:21; perhaps Romans 16:27; Hebrews 13:21). Usually this expression occurs as a descriptor of God’s glory or power, emphasizing that these attributes are his possession "unto the ages of the ages." It would seem that this language, building upon the eternality of God’s existence, is expressing clearly the concept of eternity. It is not true that a concept of continuous existence, whether one calls this "eternity" or characterizes it as "eternal", is absent from the New Testament. Jesus promised inMatthew 25:31-46 that his followers will "inherit the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world" (v.34) and this later is characterized as going away "into life eternal" (eis zōēn aiōnion). This is set in the context of end of the world, divine judgment. The use of the phrase "eternal life" in Matthew 25:46 should be understood in a way that is consistent with its occurrence in Matthew 18:16. If Jesus was at all consistent in his use of language, then "eternal life" in Matthew 18:16 cannot refer merely to transformed life in this era.
One strategy that Bell uses to avoid such conclusions is to argue that "Jesus blurs the lines, inviting the rich man, and us, into the merging of heaven and earth, the future and present, here and now" (59). However, as I have sought to argue, Jesus did not do this, at least with respect to the expression zōē aiōnios.
So what was this "life" that Jesus promised this man if he responded and followed him? Bell is correct is saying that Jesus offered the man the possibility of "possessing" eternal life now and beginning to enjoy its blessings to some degree in this age, but fully in the age to come. However, even in John’s Gospel Jesus was not teaching a fully realized eschatology. One of the functions of the Holy Spirit is to enable us to experience life with God in the present. However, this cannot compare with what believers will yet experience, as Paul articulates in 2 Corinthians 5:1-10.
Another phrase that Bell comments upon occurs in Matthew 25:46, usually translated as "eternal punishment" or "punishment without ending" (eis kolasin aiōnion) (91-92). Building upon his treatment of the term aiōnion Bell suggests that this refers to "a period of pruning" or "a time of trimming," but does not stipulate something that is without end. However, if he argues this sense for its use in v.46, then he must also argue for a similar sense in v.41 where Jesus defines the destiny of "those on the left" of the Messiah’s throne as "the eternal fire (eis to pur to aiōnion) prepared for the devil and his angels." Is this fire similarly only for a period of time? Some consider Jesus’ comments here to reflect the sentiments in Daniel 12:2-3 (cf. John 5:29).
Bell asks whose version of the story, i.e. Gospel, we will believe and share, and he has asked the right question. However, his version of the Gospel story, I believe, unfortunately is deficient. I would rather seek to grasp and believe the whole of Jesus’ teaching and ground my life in that Gospel.
At the end of the day Bell wants to keep the word ‘hell’ but primarily to refer "to the big, wide, terrible evil that comes from the secrets hidden deep within our hearts all the way to the massive, society-wide collapse and chaos that comes when we fail to live in God’s world God’s way" (93). It is an eschatologically realized hell, not one that threatens a person with a destiny in the age to come that is truly horrific and to be avoided at all costs because of sinful rejection of Jesus in this earthly, human context.
The third issue where Bell’s perspective is deficient, in my view, occurs in his selective use of biblical data to support his position. He admits that he has not written a biblical or systematic theological treatment of these issues. However, to raise so many serious and challenging questions, but then not to attempt seriously to respond to them using the whole of the biblical resources available borders on the irresponsible. For example, I do not believe I once read about the concept of God’s righteousness, i.e. his faithful adherence to his covenant arrangements, in his book. Yet, as we know from key Old Testament texts such as Exodus 34:7-7, God in these covenant arrangements defines his response to those who are obedient adherents and those who act wickedly. The guilty he will not hold guiltless. Jesus in his teaching constantly warns Jews that refusal to accept him and his teaching will bring divine judgment, not only in this age but also in the age to come. What did Jesus mean when he said that "the Son of Man would be ashamed" of those who in this age are ashamed of him, "whenever he comes in the glory of his father with the holy angels" (Mark 8:38). Shame surely carries connotations of judgment and lack of acceptance. In John’s Gospel (3:18) the writer affirms that "the person who has not put faith in the name of the only begotten Son of God" already (ēdē) stands condemned or judged. Jesus’ words will be used to judge those who set aside his teachings (John 12:47-50), because his words are zōē aiōnios (eternal life). Jesus provides no suggestion that the judgment that will come will be limited or overturned in the age to come.
Bell on page 107 describes a church tradition that "God will ultimately restore everything and everybody" and he used texts such as Matthew 19:28 ("the renewal of all things"), Acts 3:21 ("the time for the restoring of all things") andColossians 1:20 ("reconcile all things to himself") to support this contention. Bell then concludes that "restoration brings God glory; eternal torment doesn’t. Reconciliation brings God glory; endless anguish doesn’t. Renewal and return cause God’s greatness to shine through the universe; never-ending punishment doesn’t" (108). Those are dogmatic assertions. But are they true and is this the conclusion that Jesus, Peter and Paul wanted Christian disciples to reach based upon these expressions? For example, Jesus achieved glory by triumphing over Satan through the cross and resurrection, preparing for his ultimate judgment (Revelation 19-20). Throughout the Old Testament God’s glory emerges through the destruction of his enemies (cf. Exodus 15). While we may struggle to accept that idea today, it is embedded deeply in Scripture. When human beings identify themselves with Satan’s kingdom, they also become the focus of God’s powerful judgment. As Peter notes (1 Peter 3:10-11; 5:5-7) God resists the proud and his face is against those who do evil. He judges the living and the dead. Restoration and reconciliation are God’s desire, but the New Testament is consistent in its message that human participation in these divine movements are dependent upon our repentance of sin and acceptance of Jesus as Son of God and Saviour.
In the end "God wins," but God is not only characterized as love, but as truth, justice, and light. One of his names is "Jealous" and he will not tolerate sinful opposition. God’s desire is that all of humanity might be rescued, but this desire does not negate his commitment to justice, as Paul indicates clearly in 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8. Unless Bell excises such texts from the canon, we have to consider that God’s justice is not contrary to his love, as if he is a schizophrenic deity. Rather the perfection of God enables him to integrate his love and justice with complete integrity. Although Bell understands sin to be a terrible thing, in the end I do not think he is willing to perceive sin as God perceives it and thus does not consider that a human, sinful life deserves eternal punishment according to God’s standard of justice. Further the logic of his preferred position on these matters requires him to also abandon the concept of security in God’s promises. If evil people at some point in the age to come may be wooed by the wonder of God’s love into the heavenly city, then it must also be possible for those present in the heavenly city also to rebel against that love and find themselves in hell, just as Satan rebelled and was cast out of heaven. In the end then it is God who does win, but he wins in ways totally consistent with his justice, truth, love, and power.
Larry Perkins, Ph.D.
Professor in Biblical Studies
Northwest Baptist Seminary
April 19, 2011
  • [SUP]1[/SUP]Bell does not consider the question of whether evil spirits and even Satan himself might eventually be rehabilitated.
  • [SUP]2[/SUP]Concepts such as purgatory, saying mass for the dead, etc. are some of the ways that these ideas gain expression in some segments of contemporary Christianity.
  • [SUP]3[/SUP]It is interesting that Bell on pages 180-182 will argue that the Gospel is not about entering, but participating, seeming to forget what Jesus has said here about “entering life.”
  • [SUP]4[/SUP]In the case of Ezekiel’s prophecy (16:53-58) the point seems to be the humiliation of Jerusalem for its sinful condition. Yahweh “restores the fortunes of Sodom…and the fortunes of Samaria” (53) “in order that you may bear your disgrace and be ashamed of all that you have done" (54). There is no hint that this restoration of Sodom or Samaria will occur in the age to come or represents their positive response to God’s kindness.
  • [SUP]5[/SUP]E. Schürer, The History of the Jewish People in the Age of Jesus Christ, Volume II, revised and edited by G. Vermes, F. Millar and M. Black (Edinburgh: T & T Clark Ltd., 1979), 536-539.
  • [SUP]6[/SUP]Mark’s Gospel says “in the coming age eternal life.”
 
Re: Tormento eterno: La evidencia irrefutable

No hace falta tanta perorata para entender que, si el diablo sufrirá tormento eterno en fuego y gusano, ¿qué ocurriría con los no inscritos en el libro de la vida?

Véase Mateo 25 para más detalles.
 
Re: Tormento eterno: La evidencia irrefutable

En esencia .... Óle al ....Larry Perkins por su sabia conclusion:

In the end "God wins," but God is not only characterized as love, but as truth, justice, and light. One of his names is "Jealous" and he will not tolerate sinful opposition. God’s desire is that all of humanity might be rescued, but this desire does not negate his commitment to justice, as Paul indicates clearly in
2 Thessalonians 1:5-8. Unless Bell excises such texts from the canon, we have to consider that God’s justice is not contrary to his love, as if he is a schizophrenic deity. Rather the perfection of God enables him to integrate his love and justice with complete integrity. Although Bell understands sin to be a terrible thing, in the end I do not think he is willing to perceive sin as God perceives it and thus does not consider that a human, sinful life deserves eternal punishment according to God’s standard of justice. Further the logic of his preferred position on these matters requires him to also abandon the concept of security in God’s promises. If evil people at some point in the age to come may be wooed by the wonder of God’s love into the heavenly city, then it must also be possible for those present in the heavenly city also to rebel against that love and find themselves in hell, just as Satan rebelled and was cast out of heaven. In the end then it is God who does win, but he wins in ways totally consistent with his justice, truth, love, and power.
Larry Perkins, Ph.D.
 
Re: Tormento eterno: La evidencia irrefutable

Y en contexto y en respuesta a los que piensan que Dios solo salva vamos a acordarnos de uno de los 12 y lo que le pasó:

Luc 22:3 Y entró Satanás en Judas, por sobrenombre Iscariote, el cual era uno del número de los doce;

Ese hombre se fue a muchos lugares - pero no a la Vida Eterna...


 
Re: Tormento eterno: La evidencia irrefutable

Y ademas vamos a recordar a los que No eran los 12 ---- pero SI eran dicipulos de Cristo Jesús:

LucasCapítulo 10
10:1 Después de estas cosas, designó el Señor también a otros setenta, a quienes envió de dos en dos delante de él a toda ciudad y lugar adonde él había de ir.
10:2 Y les decía: La mies a la verdad es mucha, mas los obreros pocos; por tanto, rogad al Señor de la mies que envíe obreros a su mies.
10:3 Id; he aquí yo os envío como corderos en medio de lobos.
10:4 No llevéis bolsa, ni alforja, ni calzado; y a nadie saludéis por el camino.
10:5 En cualquier casa donde entréis, primeramente decid: Paz sea a esta casa.
10:6 Y si hubiere allí algún hijo de paz, vuestra paz reposará sobre él; y si no, se volverá a vosotros.
10:7 Y posad en aquella misma casa, comiendo y bebiendo lo que os den; porque el obrero es digno de su salario. No os paséis de casa en casa.
10:8 En cualquier ciudad donde entréis, y os reciban, comed lo que os pongan delante;
10:9 y sanad a los enfermos que en ella haya, y decidles: Se ha acercado a vosotros el reino de Dios.
10:10 Mas en cualquier ciudad donde entréis, y no os reciban, saliendo por sus calles, decid:
10:11 Aun el polvo de vuestra ciudad, que se ha pegado a nuestros pies, lo sacudimos contra vosotros. Pero esto sabed, que el reino de Dios se ha acercado a vosotros.
10:12 Y os digo que en aquel día será más tolerable el castigo para Sodoma, que para aquella ciudad.
10:13 ¡Ay de ti, Corazín! ¡Ay de ti, Betsaida! que si en Tiro y en Sidón se hubieran hecho los milagros que se han hecho en vosotras, tiempo ha que sentadas en cilicio y ceniza, se habrían arrepentido.
10:14 Por tanto, en el juicio será más tolerable el castigo para Tiro y Sidón, que para vosotras.
10:15 Y tú, Capernaum, que hasta los cielos eres levantada, hasta el Hades serás abatida.
10:16 El que a vosotros oye, a mí me oye; y el que a vosotros desecha, a mí me desecha; y el que me desecha a mí, desecha al que me envió.
10:17 Volvieron los setenta con gozo, diciendo: Señor, aun los demonios se nos sujetan en tu nombre.
10:18 Y les dijo: Yo veía a Satanás caer del cielo como un rayo.
10:19 He aquí os doy potestad de hollar serpientes y escorpiones, y sobre toda fuerza del enemigo, y nada os dañará.
10:20 Pero no os regocijéis de que los espíritus se os sujetan, sino regocijaos de que vuestros nombres están escritos en los cielos.
10:21 En aquella misma hora Jesús se regocijó en el Espíritu, y dijo: Yo te alabo, oh Padre, Señor del cielo y de la tierra, porque escondiste estas cosas de los sabios y entendidos, y las has revelado a los niños. Sí, Padre, porque así te agradó.
10:22 Todas las cosas me fueron entregadas por mi Padre; y nadie conoce quién es el Hijo sino el Padre; ni quién es el Padre, sino el Hijo, y aquel a quien el Hijo lo quiera revelar.

Y el que entienda el contexto y la coneccion (entre el texto que cite sobre Judas - uno de los 12 y este)
... que lo entienda.... :)

En Cristo (por su puesto ;))
 
Re: Tormento eterno: La evidencia irrefutable


In the end "God wins," but God is not only characterized as love, but as truth, justice, and light. One of his names is "Jealous" and he will not tolerate sinful opposition. God’s desire is that all of humanity might be rescued, but this desire does not negate his commitment to justice, as Paul indicates clearly in
2 Thessalonians 1:5-8. Unless Bell excises such texts from the canon, we have to consider that God’s justice is not contrary to his love, as if he is a schizophrenic deity. Rather the perfection of God enables him to integrate his love and justice with complete integrity. Although Bell understands sin to be a terrible thing, in the end I do not think he is willing to perceive sin as God perceives it and thus does not consider that a human, sinful life deserves eternal punishment according to God’s standard of justice. Further the logic of his preferred position on these matters requires him to also abandon the concept of security in God’s promises. If evil people at some point in the age to come may be wooed by the wonder of God’s love into the heavenly city, then it must also be possible for those present in the heavenly city also to rebel against that love and find themselves in hell, just as Satan rebelled and was cast out of heaven. In the end then it is God who does win, but he wins in ways totally consistent with his justice, truth, love, and power.
Larry Perkins, Ph.D.

Hence such god is an irrational deity playing a macabre bloodthirsty game. Such god resembles better Moloch kind of divine justice. Btw the Gehena was an ancient place related to human sacrifices to Moloch. But, what the hell!!! hel is a pervasive christian teaching and those who deny are are damn!!! thus "your image of god wins"
1722_moloch2.gif
 
Re: Tormento eterno: La evidencia irrefutable

Hence such god is an irrational deity playing a macabre bloodthirsty game. Such god resembles better Moloch kind of divine justice. Btw the Gehena was an ancient place related to human sacrifices to Moloch. But, what the hell!!! hell
is a pervasive christian teaching and those who deny it are are damn!!! "your image of god wins"



 
Re: Tormento eterno: La evidencia irrefutable

Hence such god is an irrational deity playing a macabre bloodthirsty game. Such god resembles better Moloch kind of divine justice. Btw the Gehena was an ancient place related to human sacrifices to Moloch. But, what the hell!!! hel is a pervasive christian teaching and those who deny are are damn!!! thus "your image of god wins"
Ver el archivo adjunto 9090


No recuerdo que el cinismo es parte de la Verdad... . pero vamos... a cada cual los que le pertenecen... los del diablo a su papi y los de Cristo a Su Padre... no te parece?

:)
 
Re: Tormento eterno: La evidencia irrefutable

No recuerdo que el cinismo es parte de la Verdad... . pero vamos... a cada cual los que le pertenecen... los del diablo a su papi y los de Cristo a Su Padre... no te parece?

:)

En ocasiones lo es y solo Dios sabe quienes son sus hijos... el diablo es otro dios adaptado a las necesidades del pensamiento mágico y egocéntrico de aquella expresión de pseudo-humildad piadosa que busca sentirse parte de una élite pura y superior.
 
Re: Tormento eterno: La evidencia irrefutable

En ocasiones lo es y solo Dios sabe quienes son sus hijos... el diablo es otro dios adaptado a las necesidades del pensamiento mágico y egocéntrico de aquella expresión de pseudo-humildad piadosa que busca sentirse parte de una élite pura y superior.


Eso es lo que tu piensas - en el primer caso igual que el segundo y EN AMBOS estas totalmente equivocado... pero te dejo una Palabra de Dios dicho mediante uno de esos que tu llamas "pseudo-humildad piadosa que busca sentirse parte de una élite pura y superior".... ya que Escrito esta (y leelo BIEN):

2da. de Pedro
Capítulo 02
2:1 Pero hubo también falsos profetas entre el pueblo, como habrá entre vosotros falsos maestros, que introducirán encubiertamente herejías destructoras, y aun negarán al Señor que los rescató, atrayendo sobre sí mismos destrucción repentina.
2:2 Y muchos seguirán sus disoluciones, por causa de los cuales el camino de la verdad será blasfemado,
2:3 y por avaricia harán mercadería de vosotros con palabras fingidas. Sobre los tales ya de largo tiempo la condenación no se tarda, y su perdición no se duerme.
2:4 Porque si Dios no perdonó a los ángeles que pecaron, sino que arrojándolos al infierno los entregó a prisiones de oscuridad, para ser reservados al juicio;
2:5 y si no perdonó al mundo antiguo, sino que guardó a Noé, pregonero de justicia, con otras siete personas, trayendo el diluvio sobre el mundo de los impíos;
2:6 y si condenó por destrucción a las ciudades de Sodoma y de Gomorra, reduciéndolas a ceniza y poniéndolas de ejemplo a los que habían de vivir impíamente,
2:7 y libró al justo Lot, abrumado por la nefanda conducta de los malvados
2:8 (porque este justo, que moraba entre ellos, afligía cada día su alma justa, viendo y oyendo los hechos inicuos de ellos),
2:9 sabe el Señor librar de tentación a los piadosos, y reservar a los injustos para ser castigados en el día del juicio;
2:10 y mayormente a aquellos que, siguiendo la carne, andan en concupiscencia e inmundicia, y desprecian el señorío. Atrevidos y contumaces, no temen decir mal de las potestades superiores,
2:11 mientras que los ángeles, que son mayores en fuerza y en potencia, no pronuncian juicio de maldición contra ellas delante del Señor.
2:12 Pero éstos, hablando mal de cosas que no entienden, como animales irracionales, nacidos para presa y destrucción, perecerán en su propia perdición,
2:13 recibiendo el galardón de su injusticia, ya que tienen por delicia el gozar de deleites cada día. Estos son inmundicias y manchas, quienes aun mientras comen con vosotros, se recrean en sus errores.
2:14 Tienen los ojos llenos de adulterio, no se sacian de pecar, seducen a las almas inconstantes, tienen el corazón habituado a la codicia, y son hijos de maldición.
2:15 Han dejado el camino recto, y se han extraviado siguiendo el camino de Balaam hijo de Beor, el cual amó el premio de la maldad,
2:16 y fue reprendido por su iniquidad; pues una muda bestia de carga, hablando con voz de hombre, refrenó la locura del profeta.
2:17 Estos son fuentes sin agua, y nubes empujadas por la tormenta; para los cuales la más densa oscuridad está reservada para siempre.
2:18 Pues hablando palabras infladas y vanas, seducen con concupiscencias de la carne y disoluciones a los que verdaderamente habían huido de los que viven en error.
2:19 Les prometen libertad, y son ellos mismos esclavos de corrupción. Porque el que es vencido por alguno es hecho esclavo del que lo venció.
2:20 Ciertamente, si habiéndose ellos escapado de las contaminaciones del mundo, por el conocimiento del Señor y Salvador Jesucristo, enredándose otra vez en ellas son vencidos, su postrer estado viene a ser peor que el primero.
2:21 Porque mejor les hubiera sido no haber conocido el camino de la justicia, que después de haberlo conocido, volverse atrás del santo mandamiento que les fue dado.
2:22 Pero les ha acontecido lo del verdadero proverbio: El perro vuelve a su vómito, y la puerca lavada a revolcarse en el cieno.

Capítulo 03
3:1 Amados, esta es la segunda carta que os escribo, y en ambas despierto con exhortación vuestro limpio entendimiento,
3:2 para que tengáis memoria de las palabras que antes han sido dichas por los santos profetas, y del mandamiento del Señor y Salvador dado por vuestros apóstoles;
3:3 sabiendo primero esto, que en los postreros días vendrán burladores, andando según sus propias concupiscencias,
3:4 y diciendo: ¿Dónde está la promesa de su advenimiento? Porque desde el día en que los padres durmieron, todas las cosas permanecen así como desde el principio de la creación.
3:5 Estos ignoran voluntariamente, que en el tiempo antiguo fueron hechos por la palabra de Dios los cielos, y también la tierra, que proviene del agua y por el agua subsiste,
3:6 por lo cual el mundo de entonces pereció anegado en agua;
3:7 pero los cielos y la tierra que existen ahora, están reservados por la misma palabra, guardados para el fuego en el día del juicio y de la perdición de los hombres impíos.
3:8 Mas, oh amados, no ignoréis esto: que para con el Señor un día es como mil años, y mil años como un día.
3:9 El Señor no retarda su promesa, según algunos la tienen por tardanza, sino que es paciente para con nosotros, no queriendo que ninguno perezca, sino que todos procedan al arrepentimiento.
3:10 Pero el día del Señor vendrá como ladrón en la noche; en el cual los cielos pasarán con grande estruendo, y los elementos ardiendo serán deshechos, y la tierra y las obras que en ella hay serán quemadas.
3:11 Puesto que todas estas cosas han de ser deshechas, ¡cómo no debéis vosotros andar en santa y piadosa manera de vivir,
3:12 esperando y apresurándoos para la venida del día de Dios, en el cual los cielos, encendiéndose, serán deshechos, y los elementos, siendo quemados, se fundirán!
3:13 Pero nosotros esperamos, según sus promesas, cielos nuevos y tierra nueva, en los cuales mora la justicia.
3:14 Por lo cual, oh amados, estando en espera de estas cosas, procurad con diligencia ser hallados por él sin mancha e irreprensibles, en paz.
3:15 Y tened entendido que la paciencia de nuestro Señor es para salvación; como también nuestro amado hermano Pablo, según la sabiduría que le ha sido dada, os ha escrito,
3:16 casi en todas sus epístolas, hablando en ellas de estas cosas; entre las cuales hay algunas difíciles de entender, las cuales los indoctos e inconstantes tuercen, como también las otras Escrituras, para su propia perdición.
3:17 Así que vosotros, oh amados, sabiéndolo de antemano, guardaos, no sea que arrastrados por el error de los inicuos, caigáis de vuestra firmeza.
3:18 Antes bien, creced en la gracia y el conocimiento de nuestro Señor y Salvador Jesucristo. A él sea gloria ahora y hasta el día de la eternidad.

Amén.

 
Re: Tormento eterno: La evidencia irrefutable

[h=3]The Judgment of Naked Souls[/h]Socrates ends the dialogue by telling Callicles, Polus, and Gorgias a story that they will regard as a myth, but which he regards as true (523a). He recounts that in the old days, Cronos judged men just before they died, and divided them into two categories. He sent good and righteous men to the Isles of the Blessed, and godless, unrighteous men to the prison of vengeance and punishment called Tartarus. These cases were judged badly because the men were judged while they were alive and with their clothes on, and the judges were fooled by appearances. Zeus fixed the problem by arranging for people to be dead, and stripped naked. The judge had to be naked too, so he could scan the souls of men without distractions.
Socrates adds that he has heard this myth, believes it, and infers from it that death is the separation of body and soul. He says that each retains after death the qualities it had in life, so that a fat, long-haired man will have a fat, long-haired corpse. If he was a scoundrel, he will bear the scars of his beatings. When the judge lays hold of some potentate, he will find that his soul bears the scars of his perjuries and crimes, because these will be branded on his soul (524b-525a).
Socrates remarks that some people are benefited by the pain and agony of their own punishments (525b) and by watching others suffer excruciating torture; but others have misdeeds that cannot be cured. He says that Homer pictures kings suffering eternally in Hades, but not the ordinary scoundrel, like Thersites. Socrates tells Callicles that this might sound like nonsense to him, an old wives' tale, but warns him that when he is up before the judge on his own judgment day, he will reel and gape just like Socrates is currently doing. He finishes up by saying his ideas could be justly despised if anyone could come up with a better idea, but unfortunately, no one has.

De: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgias_(dialogue)#The_Judgment_of_Naked_Souls

[h=2]Diálogo con Calicles[/h]Calicles recomienda a Sócrates que deje de filosofar y se dedique a una actividad seria, como los negocios públicos. Sócrates le plantea el problema de la diferencia entre el bien y el placer,(o el mal y el dolor), que demuestra como distintos, contra el parecer de su amigo. Tras ardua discusión, Calicles se declara cansado y abandona, por lo que Sócrates termina monologando.
La vida debe orientarse hacia el bien. Por ello, la intervención en la vida pública debe servir para mejorar a los ciudadanos, cosa que no ha hecho ningún político griego, ni aun los afamados Temístocles y Pericles. Él se considera a sí mismo el único político auténtico, en el sentido mencionado.
Termina con una premonición sobre su propio final: la posibilidad de ser acusado injustamente ante un tribunal, reafirmándose en su voluntad de buscar el mayor bien para los ciudadanos, y no su placer, aunque ello le perjudique. Se declara asimismo creyente en el mito de la justicia de las almas después de la muerte, confiando en su trayectoria vital regida por la verdad y la justicia.

Versión en español del mismo artículo:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgias_(diálogo)

Tambien:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mito_de_Er
 
Re: Tormento eterno: La evidencia irrefutable

The Judgment of Naked Souls

Socrates ends the dialogue by telling Callicles, Polus, and Gorgias a story that they will regard as a myth, but which he regards as true (523a). He recounts that in the old days, Cronos judged men just before they died, and divided them into two categories. He sent good and righteous men to the Isles of the Blessed, and godless, unrighteous men to the prison of vengeance and punishment called Tartarus. These cases were judged badly because the men were judged while they were alive and with their clothes on, and the judges were fooled by appearances. Zeus fixed the problem by arranging for people to be dead, and stripped naked. The judge had to be naked too, so he could scan the souls of men without distractions.
Socrates adds that he has heard this myth, believes it, and infers from it that death is the separation of body and soul. He says that each retains after death the qualities it had in life, so that a fat, long-haired man will have a fat, long-haired corpse. If he was a scoundrel, he will bear the scars of his beatings. When the judge lays hold of some potentate, he will find that his soul bears the scars of his perjuries and crimes, because these will be branded on his soul (524b-525a).
Socrates remarks that some people are benefited by the pain and agony of their own punishments (525b) and by watching others suffer excruciating torture; but others have misdeeds that cannot be cured. He says that Homer pictures kings suffering eternally in Hades, but not the ordinary scoundrel, like Thersites. Socrates tells Callicles that this might sound like nonsense to him, an old wives' tale, but warns him that when he is up before the judge on his own judgment day, he will reel and gape just like Socrates is currently doing. He finishes up by saying his ideas could be justly despised if anyone could come up with a better idea, but unfortunately, no one has.

De: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgias_(dialogue)#The_Judgment_of_Naked_Souls

Diálogo con Calicles

Calicles recomienda a Sócrates que deje de filosofar y se dedique a una actividad seria, como los negocios públicos. Sócrates le plantea el problema de la diferencia entre el bien y el placer,(o el mal y el dolor), que demuestra como distintos, contra el parecer de su amigo. Tras ardua discusión, Calicles se declara cansado y abandona, por lo que Sócrates termina monologando.
La vida debe orientarse hacia el bien. Por ello, la intervención en la vida pública debe servir para mejorar a los ciudadanos, cosa que no ha hecho ningún político griego, ni aun los afamados Temístocles y Pericles. Él se considera a sí mismo el único político auténtico, en el sentido mencionado.
Termina con una premonición sobre su propio final: la posibilidad de ser acusado injustamente ante un tribunal, reafirmándose en su voluntad de buscar el mayor bien para los ciudadanos, y no su placer, aunque ello le perjudique. Se declara asimismo creyente en el mito de la justicia de las almas después de la muerte, confiando en su trayectoria vital regida por la verdad y la justicia.

Versión en español del mismo artículo:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgias_(diálogo)

Tambien:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mito_de_Er


Y ahora que... te crees haber descubierto algo :)... AY la ignorancia que siempre es atrevida.... tu fijate por donde que esos dialogos todos entraron en mis estudios de filosofia y donde hay una condradiccion? En ninguna parte!
Donde esta una evidencia que porque los gentiles con sus mentes eran capazes de captar tambien las verdades aunque ni conocieron todavia la Verdad... que El Evangelio no es verdad?
Todo lo contrario - eso (el hecho que incluso los antiguos griegos supieron captar unas verdades de la Verdad) no hace mas que coroborrar la Verdad... :)...

En fin
 
Re: Tormento eterno: La evidencia irrefutable

Y ahora que... te crees haber descubierto algo :)... AY la ignorancia que siempre es atrevida.... tu fijate por donde que esos dialogos todos entraron en mis estudios de filosofia y donde hay una condradiccion? En ninguna parte!
Donde esta una evidencia que porque los gentiles con sus mentes eran capazes de captar tambien las verdades aunque ni conocieron todavia la Verdad... que El Evangelio no es verdad?
Todo lo contrario - eso (el hecho que incluso los antiguos griegos supieron captar unas verdades de la Verdad) no hace mas que coroborrar la Verdad... :)...

En fin

No creo haber descubierto algo. El infierno siempre ha sido parte del pensamiento pagano contra el que el pensamiento monoteísta se enfrentó. Ignoro muchas cosas y nunca me atribuyo la posesión de la verdad, pero honestamente hablando; la Biblia hebrea no refleja el concepto del castigo eterno para los seres humanos y tampoco lo hace el nuevo testamento excepto cuando las innovaciones del sincretismo entre la fe original de los seguidores de Jesús (judaísmo) y la fe original de los paganos (la magia) son retro-proyectadas en ambos escritos. En realidad no tengo problemas con que creáis en el infierno, la idea ha sido tan conveniente que desde el siglo IV es parte del catecismo y de lo que significa ser cristiano, el problema surge cuando el dogma infernal se predica en nombre de Dios; de todos los maestros del ateismo el mejor es quien predica el infierno como si fuera la verdad última y ahí queda Dios definido como el dios de las paradojas.
 
Re: Tormento eterno: La evidencia irrefutable

Ah Kungens; se me olvidaba: No tengo nada en tu contra y me alegra que me dirijas la palabra, pero debo decirte que nada de lo que digo está orientado ni a insultarte, ni a insultar a nadie. Por como me has contestado percibo que vamos bien, sin-embargo por algo que ocurrió en otro epígrafe con mi amigo davidben hago la aclaración y cualquier cosa que puedas percibir ofensiva (en el sentido personal) de verdad que no es con esa intensión. :)
 
Re: Tormento eterno: La evidencia irrefutable

si el dios que creo el infierno es omnisciente y moralmente perfecto, entonces ese dios predetermina (o sabe de antemano) de que las personas que nacen en la tierra por su voluntad están condenadas al infierno a expensas de haberles otorgado el mismo la libertad de elegir. Y además ¿será tal dios omnipresente y como resolver la paradoja de un dios omnisciente y omnipresente, un infierno y el libre albedrio?
 
Re: Tormento eterno: La evidencia irrefutable

Ah Kungens; se me olvidaba: No tengo nada en tu contra y me alegra que me dirijas la palabra, pero debo decirte que nada de lo que digo está orientado ni a insultarte, ni a insultar a nadie. Por como me has contestado percibo que vamos bien, sin-embargo por algo que ocurrió en otro epígrafe con mi amigo davidben hago la aclaración y cualquier cosa que puedas percibir ofensiva (en el sentido personal) de verdad que no es con esa intensión. :)

Por ultimo, y debido a mi excesiva sensibilidad, que ocacionó haber notado aspecto ofensivos, y que por ende, me llevó a redactar un mensaje en tono defensivo, le pido mis mas sinceras disculpas. Usted es una forista que respeto y admiro, no solo por su saber, sino también por el respeto que demuestra, y por la capacidad de expresar de manera clara y entendible, lo que se propone dar a conocer.

Llegue a usted mi deseo de que YHWH le esté bendiciendo en su vida.

David

(fragmento de mensaje del epigrafe ¿ YAHSHUA (Jasús) o YEHSUA (Jesús)?)

David
 
Re: Tormento eterno: La evidencia irrefutable

No creo haber descubierto algo. El infierno siempre ha sido parte del pensamiento pagano contra el que el pensamiento monoteísta se enfrentó. Ignoro muchas cosas y nunca me atribuyo la posesión de la verdad, pero honestamente hablando; la Biblia hebrea no refleja el concepto del castigo eterno para los seres humanos y tampoco lo hace el nuevo testamento excepto cuando las innovaciones del sincretismo entre la fe original de los seguidores de Jesús (judaísmo) y la fe original de los paganos (la magia) son retro-proyectadas en ambos escritos. En realidad no tengo problemas con que creáis en el infierno, la idea ha sido tan conveniente que desde el siglo IV es parte del catecismo y de lo que significa ser cristiano, el problema surge cuando el dogma infernal se predica en nombre de Dios; de todos los maestros del ateismo el mejor es quien predica el infierno como si fuera la verdad última y ahí queda Dios definido como el dios de las paradojas.


Vamos a ver... la biblia hebrea no existe ... sino te debes de referir a las Sagradas Escrituras hebreas Torah o el pentateuco --- y efectivamente no... no creian ni en el castigo enterno ni en la resureccion :)... ahora el judaismo no son los "seguidores de Jesucristo" - TAMPOCO :) (no vamos de todo bien aqui hermanito con tus conocimientos pero --- EN FIN... como dicen :) - vamos al menos...) sino los seguidores de Jesucristo (los del Camino como se llamaron antes de ser llamados cristianos... :))---- ahora igualmente como muchos que hoy se hacen llamar cristianos no creen tampoco en el infierno igual que en realidad ni creen en la resureccion (algunos solo creen que Jesucristo ha resusitado... :)) hay de todo por alli... en ese "todo" que hay por alli... tambien hay los que bien conocen la REALIDAD espiritual... :) en la que una persona que la conoce se mueve y esta... y de esa realidad sabes y conoces no solo el Bien = la Vida (eterna que ya empieza aqui) sino tambien sabes reconocer la contraria... (y la ANGUSTIA y los gritos de la gente que estan al borde de entrar una eternidad de la "oscuridad").
En fin........... como dicen... pero los que estan fuera - nosotros los llamamos los "ciegos" no saben ni conocen esas realidades y por ende no creen en ellas igual que en realidad no creen en Dios ni Le Siguen a Cristo ya que solo conocen a un dios - y su nombre Jesucristo - de por escrito y las Escrituras Sagradas nuestras ( que en su canon conocemos bajo el nombre de la Biblia ) y ese libro es su real Dios... un libro... :) y de esos abundan tambien :)...

En Fin... otra vez
Y
En Cristo
 
Re: Tormento eterno: La evidencia irrefutable

si el dios que creo el infierno es omnisciente y moralmente perfecto, entonces ese dios predetermina (o sabe de antemano) de que las personas que nacen en la tierra por su voluntad están condenadas al infierno a expensas de haberles otorgado el mismo la libertad de elegir. Y además ¿será tal dios omnipresente y como resolver la paradoja de un dios omnisciente y omnipresente, un infierno y el libre albedrio?


Esa paradoja y esa supuesta contrariedad no la es en realidad --- sino lo es para la persona sin la unidad interior anclada en Cristo ... :)

Eso tambien puede aparentar una paradoja pero no lo es...