LOS LLAMADOS PADRES APOSTOLICOS Y DE LA IGLESIA

Re: LOS LLAMADOS PADRES APOSTOLICOS Y DE LA IGLESIA

jajaja, Agustín NO creía en salvo siempre Salvo!!!!!

Mi estimado amigo...estas en un error..

San Agustin si creia en la Predestinacion...y si creia en la Predestinacion entonces tambien lo hacia hacia la Seguridad de la Salvacion...

Hace tiempo lei este libro en linea de San Agustin....Te invito a que tu tambien lo leas...y asi te daras cuenta que los Padres de la Iglesia si tenian diferencias en cuanto a la doctrina.

Te pongo el indice del libro... y lee los que te puse en negritas

INDICE

CAPÍTULO 1: RESPONDE AGUSTÍN A LAS CARTAS DE PRÓSPERO E HILARIO

CAPÍTULO II: EL PRINCIPIO DE LA FE ES TAMBIÉN UN DON DE DIOS

CAPÍTULO III: CONFIESA AGUSTÍN SU ANTIGUO ERROR ACERCA DE LA GRACIA

CAPÍTULO IV: TODO LO HEMOS RECIBIDO DE DIOS

CAPÍTULO V: LA GRACIA DIVINA ES LA QUE DA VENTAJA A LOS BUENOS SOBRE LOS MALOS

CAPÍTULO VI: LOS CAMINOS DE DIOS SON INESCRUTABLES

CAPÍTULO VII: LA FE, FUNDAMENTO DEL EDIFICIO ESPIRITUAL

CAPÍTULO VIII: LA ENSEÑANZA DEL PADRE ES OCULTÍSIMA

CAPÍTULO IX: REIVINDIA AGUSTÍN SU DOCTRINA DEFENDIDA EN OTRO TIEMPO

CAPÍTULO X: DIFERENCIA ENTRE LA PREDESTINACIÓN Y LA GRACIA

CAPÍTULO XI: ESTABILIDAD DE LAS PROMESAS DIVINAS

CAPÍTULO XII: QUE NADIE ES JUSTIFICADO EN VIRTUD DE LOS MERITOS FUTUROS

CAPÍTULO XIII: EL BAUTISMO NO ES EFECTO DE LA PRESCIENCIA DE LOS MERITOS FUTUROS

CAPÍTULO XIV: LOS PELAGIANOS, CONDENADOS POR LA ESCRITURA Y LA TRADICIÓN

CAPÍTULO XV: JESUCRISTO, EJEMPLAR PERFECTO DE LA PREDESTINACIÓN

CAPÍTULO XVI: DOBLE VOCACIÓN DIVINA

CAPÍTULO XVII: LA VOCACIÓN PROPIA DE LOS ELEGIDOS


CAPÍTULO XVIII: DIOS NOS ESCOGIÓ PARA QUE FUERAMOS SANTOS E INMACULADOS

CAPÍTULO XIX: EL PRINCIPIO DE LA FE ES TAMBIÉN OBRA DE DIOS

CAPÍTULO XX: DIOS DISPONE Y CONVIERTE LAS VOLUNTADES HUMANAS PARA EL REINO DE LOS CIELOS Y LA VIDA ETERNA

CAPÍTULO XXI: CONCLUSIÓN

http://www.iglesiareformada.com/Agustin_Predestinacion.html

Paz de Cristo
 
Re: LOS LLAMADOS PADRES APOSTOLICOS Y DE LA IGLESIA

Claro!!!! es lo más claro que hay que hacer para NO poder somerterse a la enseñanza que cristo dejó, ¡No busques un evangelio cómodo! que este evengelio NO predicó Cristo. Muy bien dice la palabra de Dios:

1Ti 4:1 El Espíritu nos dice claramente que en los últimos tiempos algunos renegarán de la fe para seguir espíritus seductores y doctrinas diabólicas.
1Ti 4:2 Aparecerán hombres mentirosos con la conciencia marcada con la señal de los infames.


Bendiciones!

Asi es estimado , es un hecho admitido por catolicos, a decir que los Padres de la Iglesia no tenian UNIDAD de doctrina.
Ahora tomando en cuenta ese hecho.
¿Son confiables los escritos de los padres de la Iglesia?
 
Re: LOS LLAMADOS PADRES APOSTOLICOS Y DE LA IGLESIA

Asi es estimado , es un hecho admitido por catolicos, a decir que los Padres de la Iglesia no tenian UNIDAD de doctrina.
Ahora tomando en cuenta ese hecho.
¿Son confiables los escritos de los padres de la Iglesia?

Claro que lo son, nomas que una cosa, ¿has leido a los Padres o libros que citan a los Padres?
 
Re: LOS LLAMADOS PADRES APOSTOLICOS Y DE LA IGLESIA

Si, un poco, pero puedo leer mas si hace falta, hay una biblioteca a disposicion de cualquiera de los Padres de la iglesia, se pueden leer todos los volumenes, aqui les dejo a todos la direccion:

Ante-Nicene Fathers
The Writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325
Volume I. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus

Clement of Rome, Mathetes, Polycarp, Ignatius, Barnabas, Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus.

Volume II. Fathers of the Second Century

Hermas, Tatian, Theophilus, Athenagoras, Clement of Alexandria

Volume III. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian

Three Parts: I. Apologetic; II. Anti-Marcion; III. Ethical

Volume IV. The Fathers of the Third Century

Tertullian Part IV; Minucius Felix; Commodian; Origen

Volume V. The Fathers of the Third Century

Hippolytus; Cyprian; Caius; Novatian; Appendix

Volume VI. The Fathers of the Third Century

Gregory Thaumaturgus; Dinoysius the Great; Julius Africanus; Anatolius and Minor Writers; Methodius; Arnobius

Volume VII. The Fathers of the Third and Fourth Centuries

Lactantius, Venantius, Asterius, Victorinus, Dionysius, Apostolic Teaching and Constitutions, Homily, Liturgies

Volume VIII.

The Twelve Patriarchs, Excerpts and Epistles, The Clementia, Apocrypha, Decretals, Memoirs of Edessa and Syriac Documents, Remains of the First Ages

Volume IX. Recently Discovered Additions to Early Christian Literature; Commentaries of Origen

The Gospel of Peter, The Diatessaron of Tatian, The Apocalypse of Peter, The Visio Pauli, The Apocalypses of the Virgin and Sedrach, The Testament of Abraham, The Acts of Xanthippe and Polyxena, The Narrative of Zosimus, The Apology of Aristides, The Epistles of Clement (Complete Text), Origen's Commentary on John, Books I-X, Origen's Commentary on Mathew, Books I, II, and X-XIV

Volume X. Bibliographic Synopsis; General Index [not reproduced]

Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers
Series I
St. Augustine Volumes
Volume I. Prolegomena: St. Augustine's Life and Work, Confessions, Letters

Volume II. The City of God, Christian Doctrine

Volume III. On the Holy Trinity, Doctrinal Treatises, Moral Treatises

Volume IV. The Anti-Manichaean Writings, The Anti-Donatist Writings

Volume V. Anti-Pelagian Writings

Volume VI. Sermon on the Mount, Harmony of the Gospels, Homilies on the Gospels

Volume VII. Homilies on the Gospel of John, Homilies on the First Epistle of John, Soliloquies

Volume VIII. Expositions on the Psalms

St. Chrysostom Volumes
Volume IX. On the Priesthood, Ascetic Treatises, Select Homilies and Letters, Homilies on the Statutes

Volume X. Homilies on the Gospel of St. Matthew

Volume XI. Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistle to the Romans

Volume XII. Homilies on First and Second Corinthians

Volume XIII. Homilies on the Epistles to the Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians, Timothy, Titus, and Philemon

Volume XIV. Homilies on the Gospel of St. John and the Epistle to the Hebrews

Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers
Series II
Volume I. Eusebius: Church History from A.D. 1-324, Life of Constantine the Great, Oration in Praise of Constantine

Volume II. Socrates: Church History from A.D. 305-438; Sozomenus: Church History from A.D. 323-425

Volume III. Theodoret, Jerome and Gennadius, Rufinus and Jerome

Volume IV. Athanasius: Select Writings and Letters

Volume V. Gregory of Nyssa: Dogmatic Treatises; Select Writings and Letters

Volume VI. Jerome: Letters and Select Works

Volume VII. Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory Nazianzen

Volume VIII. Basil: Letters and Select Works

Volume IX. Hilary of Poitiers, John of Damascus

Volume X. Ambrose: Select Works and Letters

Volume XI. Sulpitius Severus, Vincent of Lerins, John Cassian

Volume XII. Leo the Great, Gregory the Great

Volume XIII. Gregory the Great II, Ephriam Syrus, Aphrahat

Volume XIV. The Seven Ecumenical Councils

http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html
 
Re: LOS LLAMADOS PADRES APOSTOLICOS Y DE LA IGLESIA

Si, un poco, pero puedo leer mas si hace falta, hay una biblioteca a disposicion de cualquiera de los Padres de la iglesia, se pueden leer todos los volumenes[/SIZE][/B]

No hace falta, la Biblioteca de unos amigos Jesuitas me dejan checarlos y en Español. :) Y te digo, no se contradicen, sino que son tan Cristianos como los Catolicos.
 
Re: LOS LLAMADOS PADRES APOSTOLICOS Y DE LA IGLESIA


Bendiciones Chico


Bueno, Bro...lo que pasa es que estoy de vacaciones...o al menos eso creo yo jejejej...ya que mis papas estan de viaje y yo les estoy cuidando la casa...

No me traje ningun libro... unicamente mi biblia...pero es por eso que no he contestado ningun post...por mi limitacion al Internet y lo ocupado que estoy en esa actividad...ademas de que en mi pequeña iglesia local estamos en curso de verano...y hay que estar al pendiente de los niños que asisten.

Pero no te desesperes...ya te contestare a ti y a Kal...pero no se cuando...y ojala vea Kal este mensaje.

Paz de Cristo

Ok, Vayikra bendiciones hermano, ¡Entendido! jejeje.
 
Re: LOS LLAMADOS PADRES APOSTOLICOS Y DE LA IGLESIA

Asi es estimado , es un hecho admitido por catolicos, a decir que los Padres de la Iglesia no tenian UNIDAD de doctrina.
Ahora tomando en cuenta ese hecho.
¿Son confiables los escritos de los padres de la Iglesia?

Los Padres Apostólicos SI tenían unidad de Doctrina, Bueno... a no ser si llames padre Apostólico a Lutero o a Calvino... Si hablamos de Padres Apostólicos SI estan en armonía con el evangelio de cristo.

Bendiciones!

P.D. Si es confiable confiar en los Padres Apstólicos porque ellos recibieron la enseñanza de los Apostóles.
 
Re: LOS LLAMADOS PADRES APOSTOLICOS Y DE LA IGLESIA

Mi estimado amigo...estas en un error..

San Agustin si creia en la Predestinacion...y si creia en la Predestinacion entonces tambien lo hacia hacia la Seguridad de la Salvacion...

Hace tiempo lei este libro en linea de San Agustin....Te invito a que tu tambien lo leas...y asi te daras cuenta que los Padres de la Iglesia si tenian diferencias en cuanto a la doctrina.

Te pongo el indice del libro... y lee los que te puse en negritas

INDICE

CAPÍTULO 1: RESPONDE AGUSTÍN A LAS CARTAS DE PRÓSPERO E HILARIO

CAPÍTULO II: EL PRINCIPIO DE LA FE ES TAMBIÉN UN DON DE DIOS

CAPÍTULO III: CONFIESA AGUSTÍN SU ANTIGUO ERROR ACERCA DE LA GRACIA

CAPÍTULO IV: TODO LO HEMOS RECIBIDO DE DIOS

CAPÍTULO V: LA GRACIA DIVINA ES LA QUE DA VENTAJA A LOS BUENOS SOBRE LOS MALOS

CAPÍTULO VI: LOS CAMINOS DE DIOS SON INESCRUTABLES

CAPÍTULO VII: LA FE, FUNDAMENTO DEL EDIFICIO ESPIRITUAL

CAPÍTULO VIII: LA ENSEÑANZA DEL PADRE ES OCULTÍSIMA

CAPÍTULO IX: REIVINDIA AGUSTÍN SU DOCTRINA DEFENDIDA EN OTRO TIEMPO

CAPÍTULO X: DIFERENCIA ENTRE LA PREDESTINACIÓN Y LA GRACIA

CAPÍTULO XI: ESTABILIDAD DE LAS PROMESAS DIVINAS

CAPÍTULO XII: QUE NADIE ES JUSTIFICADO EN VIRTUD DE LOS MERITOS FUTUROS

CAPÍTULO XIII: EL BAUTISMO NO ES EFECTO DE LA PRESCIENCIA DE LOS MERITOS FUTUROS

CAPÍTULO XIV: LOS PELAGIANOS, CONDENADOS POR LA ESCRITURA Y LA TRADICIÓN

CAPÍTULO XV: JESUCRISTO, EJEMPLAR PERFECTO DE LA PREDESTINACIÓN

CAPÍTULO XVI: DOBLE VOCACIÓN DIVINA

CAPÍTULO XVII: LA VOCACIÓN PROPIA DE LOS ELEGIDOS


CAPÍTULO XVIII: DIOS NOS ESCOGIÓ PARA QUE FUERAMOS SANTOS E INMACULADOS

CAPÍTULO XIX: EL PRINCIPIO DE LA FE ES TAMBIÉN OBRA DE DIOS

CAPÍTULO XX: DIOS DISPONE Y CONVIERTE LAS VOLUNTADES HUMANAS PARA EL REINO DE LOS CIELOS Y LA VIDA ETERNA

CAPÍTULO XXI: CONCLUSIÓN

http://www.iglesiareformada.com/Agustin_Predestinacion.html

Paz de Cristo

"Salvo siempre Salvo" es lo mismo que PREDESTINACIÓN..... porque según yo son conceptos distintos.... de ahí tendremos que partir porque aunque se le puede llegar a dar un enfoque similar para mí y según lo que yo conozco es distinto... pero... ¿Cómo manejó San Agustín la Predestinación?.

Bendiciones!
 
Re: LOS LLAMADOS PADRES APOSTOLICOS Y DE LA IGLESIA

Buena acotación Margarita. Los autores de hebreos y de la literatura originada en el seno de la comunidad del discípulo amado, asi como el autor de la 2Pe y otros, son tenidos por "validos" porque asi lo decretó la gran iglesia emergente, pero los padres apostolicos y padres de la iglesia tuvieron cada uno su propio "canón" y incluían o excluían tal o cual libro

Pero no obstante hasta tu maestro dice que la patristica es algo que debe conocer todo cristiano ¿No estás de acuerdo con él en este punto?
¿He dicho yo que no se lea la patristica?

Los autores de hebreos y de la literatura originada en el seno de la comunidad del discípulo amado, asi como el autor de la 2Pe y otros, son tenidos por "validos" porque asi lo decretó la gran iglesia emergente, pero los padres apostolicos y padres de la iglesia tuvieron cada uno su propio "canón" y incluían o excluían tal o cual libro
Eso ya lo sabemos y poe eso pregunto al autor de este tema:

Y mira por donde lo que decidieron siglos mas tarde es lo que tu crees "la palabra final" ¿Me lo puedes exlicar?
 
Re: LOS LLAMADOS PADRES APOSTOLICOS Y DE LA IGLESIA

Los Padres Apostólicos SI tenían unidad de Doctrina, Bueno... a no ser si llames padre Apostólico a Lutero o a Calvino... Si hablamos de Padres Apostólicos SI estan en armonía con el evangelio de cristo.

Bendiciones!

P.D. Si es confiable confiar en los Padres Apstólicos porque ellos recibieron la enseñanza de los Apostóles.
Disculpas a mis hermano que no hablan ingles:

The Contradictions of
‘Apostolic’ Tradition​


Roman Catholicism teaches that the apostles left the church with an unwritten authoritative oral tradition. This tradition supposedly gives us the proper way of how Scripture is to be interpreted, and the Roman Church claims that it practices and interprets Scripture according to those traditions that were taught by apostles. However, as history shows, there are many reasons why one should reject the claim of ‘apostolic’ tradition.

Papias vs. Eusebius

Papias, one of the earliest of the church fathers, made a few claims concerning so-called ‘apostolic’ traditions. However, Eusebius, a fourth century church historian, repudiates his ‘apostolic’ traditions as being ‘mythical’:

“But it is fitting to subjoin to the words of Papias which have been quoted, other passages from his works in which he relates some other wonderful events which he claims to have received from tradition. That Philip the apostle dwelt at Hierapolis with his daughters has been already stated. But it must be noted here that Papias, their contemporary, says that he heard a wonderful tale from the daughters of Philip. For he relates that in his time one rose from the dead. And he tells another wonderful story of Justus, surnamed Barsabbas: that he drank a deadly poison, and yet, by the grace of the Lord, suffered no harm. The Book of Acts records that the holy apostles after the ascension of the Saviour, put forward this Justus, together with Matthias, and prayed that one might be chosen in place of the traitor Judas, to fill up their number. The account is as follows: “And they put forward two, Joseph, called Barsabbas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias; and they prayed and said.” The same writer gives also other accounts which he says came to him through unwritten tradition, certain strange parables and teachings of the Saviour, and some other more mythical things. To these belong his statement that there will be a period of some thousand years after the resurrection of the dead, and that the kingdom of Christ will be set up in material form on this very earth. I suppose he got these ideas through a misunderstanding of the apostolic accounts, not perceiving that the things said by them were spoken mystically in figures. For he appears to have been of very limited understanding, as one can see from his discourses.” (emphasis mine)
-Eusebius, Church History 3.39.8-13
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/Npnf2-01-08.htm#P2185_1027485

As you can see, many of the church fathers did not accept Papias’ ‘apostolic’ traditions. Another thing that must be noted is that Papias’ ‘apostolic’ tradition about the coming of Christ is in opposition to Roman Catholic teaching. Papias said that premillennialism was an ‘apostolic’ tradition while the Roman Catholic Church holds to amillennialism.

Easter: Polycrates vs. Victor

In the late 2nd century, Victor, the bishop of Rome, threatened to cut off communion with the Eastern churches because they celebrated Easter on a different day than that of the Western churches. The Eastern churches, represented by Polycrates, bishop of Ephesus, defied the bishop of Rome, and both sides claimed that apostolic tradition was on their side. Eusebius records this:

“For the parishes of all Asia, as from an older tradition, held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which day the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as the feast of the Saviour’s passover. It was therefore necessary to end their fast on that day, whatever day of the week it should happen to be. But it was not the custom of the churches in the rest of the world to end it at this time, as they observed the practice which, from apostolic tradition, has prevailed to the present time, of terminating the fast on no other day than on that of the resurrection of our Saviour.” (emphasis mine)
-Eusebius, Church History 5.23.1
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/Npnf2-01-10.htm#P3363_1568793

The bishops of the East did not give in, and they wrote a letter to Victor:
“But the bishops of Asia, led by Polycrates, decided to hold to the old custom handed down to them. He himself, in a letter which he addressed to Victor and the church of Rome, set forth in the following words the tradition which had come down to him:
“We observe the exact day; neither adding, nor taking away. For in Asia also great lights have fallen asleep, which shall rise again on the day of the Lord's coming, when he shall come with glory from heaven, and shall seek out all the saints. Among these are Philip, one of the twelve apostles, who fell asleep in Hierapolis; and his two aged virgin daughters, and another daughter, who lived in the Holy Spirit and now rests at Ephesus; and, moreover, John,who was both a witness and a teacher, who reclined upon the bosom of the Lord, and, being a priest, wore the sacerdotal plate.””

-Eusebius, Church History 5.24.1-2
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/Npnf2-01-10.htm#P3363_1568793

This is a perfect example of ‘apostolic’ traditions originating from apostolic sees contradicting each other. If anything, this proves that oral traditions are unreliable at best.

The Age of Jesus According to Irenaeus


Irenaeus was one of the earliest church fathers, and he was a very popular anti-gnostic writer. In his famous work, Against Heresies, Irenaeus used what he believed to be an apostolic tradition for one of his arguments against Gnosticism:

“On completing His thirtieth year He suffered, being in fact still a young man, and who had by no means attained to advanced age. Now, that the first stage of early life embraces thirty years, and that this extends onwards to the fortieth year, every one will admit; but from the fortieth and fiftieth year a man begins to decline towards old age, which our Lord possessed while He still fulfilled the office of a Teacher, even as the Gospel and all the elders testify; those who were conversant in Asia with John, the disciple of the Lord, [affirming] that John conveyed to them that information. And he remained among them up to the times of Trajan. Some of them, moreover, saw not only John, but the other apostles also, and heard the very same account from them, and bear testimony as to the [validity of] the statement…But, besides this, those very Jews who then disputed with the Lord Jesus Christ have most clearly indicated the same thing. For when the Lord said to them, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day; and he saw it, and was glad,” they answered Him, “Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?” Now, such language is fittingly applied to one who has already passed the age of forty, without having as yet reached his fiftieth year, yet is not far from this latter period. But to one who is only thirty years old it would unquestionably be said, “Thou art not yet forty years old.” For those who wished to convict Him of falsehood would certainly not extend the number of His years far beyond the age which they saw He had attained; but they mentioned a period near His real age, whether they had truly ascertained this out of the entry in the public register, or simply made a conjecture from what they observed that He was above forty years old, and that He certainly was not one of only thirty years of age…He did not then wont much of being fifty years old.” (emphasis mine)
-Irenaeus, Against Heresies 2.22.5-6
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-59.htm#P7011_1802900

Here, Irenaeus claims that Jesus lived to be nearly fifty years old before He was crucified, and he cited this as an apostolic tradition that originated from the Apostle John. However, we know that Jesus only lived to be thirty-three years old when he was crucified.

Cyprian and Firmilian vs. Stephen

In the mid-third century, a controversy arose whether heretical baptism was valid. Cyprian, like his fellow African, Tertullian, said that it was not valid and claimed apostolic tradition for his practice. Stephen, the bishop of Rome, on the other hand, said that heretics should not be re-baptized and also claimed apostolic tradition for his beliefs. Cyprian records Stephen’s claims:

“But that they who are at Rome do not observe those things in all cases which are handed down from the beginning, and vainly pretend the authority of the apostles…” (emphasis mine)
-Cyprian, The Epistles of Cyprian, Letter LXXIV.6
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-99.htm#P6387_2042966

Cyprian goes on to say that Stephen’s apostolic tradition is false and that the rest of the churches of the world agree with his (i.e. Cyprian’s) ‘apostolic’ tradition:

“…any one may know also from the fact, that concerning the celebration of Easter, and concerning many other sacraments of divine matters, he may see that there are some diversities among them, and that all things are not observed among them alike, which are observed at Jerusalem, just as in very many other provinces also many things are varied because of the difference of the places and names. And yet on this account there is no departure at all from the peace and unity of the Catholic Church, such as Stephen has now dared to make; breaking the peace against you, which his predecessors have always kept with you in mutual love and honour, even herein defaming Peter and Paul the blessed apostles, as if the very men delivered this who in their epistles execrated heretics, and warned us to avoid them. Whence, it appears that this tradition is of men which maintains heretics, and asserts that they have baptism, which belongs to the Church alone.” (emphasis mine)
-Cyprian, The Epistles of Cyprian, Letter LXXIV.6
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-99.htm#P6387_2042966

Cyprian records a letter from Firmilian, bishop of Cappadocia, which sides with him:

“But with respect to the refutation of custom which they seem to oppose to the truth, who is so foolish as to prefer custom to truth, or when he sees the light, not to forsake the darkness?-unless most ancient custom in any respect avail the Jews, upon the advent of Christ, that is, the Truth, in remaining in their old usage, and forsaking the new way of truth. And this indeed you Africans are able to say against Stephen, that when you knew the truth you forsook the error of custom. But we join custom to truth, and to the Romans’ custom we oppose custom, but the custom of truth; holding from the beginning that which was delivered by Christ and the apostles. Nor do we remember that this at any time began among us, since it has always been observed here, that we knew none but one Church of God, and accounted no baptism holy except that of the holy Church.” (emphasis mine)
-Cyprian, The Epistles of Cyprian, Letter LXXIV.19
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-99.htm#P6387_2042966

Eusebius records the letter of Dionysius of Alexandria to Sixtus I about Stephen:

“’He therefore had written previously concerning Helenus and Firmilianus, and all those in Cilicia and Cappadocia and Galatia and the neighboring nations, saying that he would not commune with them for this same cause; namely, that they re-baptized heretics. But consider the importance of the matter. For truly in the largest synods of the bishops, as I learn, decrees have been passed on this subject, that those coming over from heresies should be instructed, and then should be washed and cleansed from the filth of the old and impure leaven. And I wrote entreating him concerning all these things.’” (emphasis mine)
-Eusebius, Church History 7.7.4-5
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/Npnf2-01-12.htm#P4241_2002100

Not only did these two so-called ‘apostolic’ traditions contradict each other (which brings doubt to the reliability of oral tradition), but the Roman Catholic Church holds to the same tradition today that Stephen held to in the third century. Nearly the entire early church in the days of Cyprian and Stephen opposed Stephen’s custom as being non-apostolic. Thus, the modern Roman Church is in violation of its vow never to interpret the Scriptures in opposition to the unanimous consent of the church fathers.

The Septuagint Myth

The Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, was written a few hundred years before the First Advent of Christ, and it became the Bible translation for the Christians of the early church. Between the time that the Septuagint was formed and the Church Age, many myths appeared about the formation of the Septuagint, and many Christians came to believe in them. Cyril of Jerusalem typifies this:

“For after the death of Alexander, the king of the Macedonians, and the division of his kingdom into four principalities, into Babylonia, and Macedonia, and Asia, and Egypt, one of those who reigned over Egypt, Ptolemy Philadelphus, being a king very fond of learning, while collecting the books that were in every place, heard from Demetrius Phalereus, the curator of his library, of the Divine Scriptures of the Law and the Prophets, and judged it much nobler, not to get the books from the possessors by force against their will, but rather to propitiate them by gifts and friendship; and knowing that what is extorted is often adulterated, being given unwillingly, while that which is willingly supplied is freely given with all sincerity, he sent to Eleazar, who was then High Priest, a great many gifts for the Temple here at Jerusalem, and caused him to send him six interpreters from each of the twelve tribes of Israel for the translation. Then, further, to make experiment whether the books were Divine or not, he took precaution that those who had been sent should not combine among themselves, by assigning to each of the interpreters who had come his separate chamber in the island called Pharos, which lies over against Alexandria, and committed to each the whole Scriptures to translate. And when they had fulfilled the task in seventy-two days, he brought together all their translations, which they had made in different chambers without sending them one to another, and found that they agreed not only in the sense but even in words. For the process was no word-craft, nor contrivance of human devices: but the translation of the Divine Scriptures, spoken by the Holy Ghost, was of the Holy Ghost accomplished.” (emphasis mine)
-Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures 4.34
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-07/Npnf2-07-09.htm#P452_92480

Cyril, like many Christians, believed that the translators were sent into separate caves and came up with the same translation of the Old Testament word for word, and he used this belief to convince his catechumens that they could trust their Greek translation of the Old Testament. However, as many scholars have shown, the belief about the separate caves and the same translations is a myth. This myth is further disproved by comparing the Septuagint to the Hebrew and Aramaic Old Testament where it can be shown that there are obvious mistranslations.

http://www.lightshinesindarkness.com/contadiction_tradition.htm
 
Re: LOS LLAMADOS PADRES APOSTOLICOS Y DE LA IGLESIA

Disculpas a mis hermano que no hablan ingles:

The Contradictions of
‘Apostolic’ Tradition​


Roman Catholicism teaches that the apostles left the church with an unwritten authoritative oral tradition. This tradition supposedly gives us the proper way of how Scripture is to be interpreted, and the Roman Church claims that it practices and interprets Scripture according to those traditions that were taught by apostles. However, as history shows, there are many reasons why one should reject the claim of ‘apostolic’ tradition.

Papias vs. Eusebius

Papias, one of the earliest of the church fathers, made a few claims concerning so-called ‘apostolic’ traditions. However, Eusebius, a fourth century church historian, repudiates his ‘apostolic’ traditions as being ‘mythical’:

“But it is fitting to subjoin to the words of Papias which have been quoted, other passages from his works in which he relates some other wonderful events which he claims to have received from tradition. That Philip the apostle dwelt at Hierapolis with his daughters has been already stated. But it must be noted here that Papias, their contemporary, says that he heard a wonderful tale from the daughters of Philip. For he relates that in his time one rose from the dead. And he tells another wonderful story of Justus, surnamed Barsabbas: that he drank a deadly poison, and yet, by the grace of the Lord, suffered no harm. The Book of Acts records that the holy apostles after the ascension of the Saviour, put forward this Justus, together with Matthias, and prayed that one might be chosen in place of the traitor Judas, to fill up their number. The account is as follows: “And they put forward two, Joseph, called Barsabbas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias; and they prayed and said.” The same writer gives also other accounts which he says came to him through unwritten tradition, certain strange parables and teachings of the Saviour, and some other more mythical things. To these belong his statement that there will be a period of some thousand years after the resurrection of the dead, and that the kingdom of Christ will be set up in material form on this very earth. I suppose he got these ideas through a misunderstanding of the apostolic accounts, not perceiving that the things said by them were spoken mystically in figures. For he appears to have been of very limited understanding, as one can see from his discourses.” (emphasis mine)
-Eusebius, Church History 3.39.8-13
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/Npnf2-01-08.htm#P2185_1027485

As you can see, many of the church fathers did not accept Papias’ ‘apostolic’ traditions. Another thing that must be noted is that Papias’ ‘apostolic’ tradition about the coming of Christ is in opposition to Roman Catholic teaching. Papias said that premillennialism was an ‘apostolic’ tradition while the Roman Catholic Church holds to amillennialism.

Easter: Polycrates vs. Victor

In the late 2nd century, Victor, the bishop of Rome, threatened to cut off communion with the Eastern churches because they celebrated Easter on a different day than that of the Western churches. The Eastern churches, represented by Polycrates, bishop of Ephesus, defied the bishop of Rome, and both sides claimed that apostolic tradition was on their side. Eusebius records this:

“For the parishes of all Asia, as from an older tradition, held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which day the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as the feast of the Saviour’s passover. It was therefore necessary to end their fast on that day, whatever day of the week it should happen to be. But it was not the custom of the churches in the rest of the world to end it at this time, as they observed the practice which, from apostolic tradition, has prevailed to the present time, of terminating the fast on no other day than on that of the resurrection of our Saviour.” (emphasis mine)
-Eusebius, Church History 5.23.1
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/Npnf2-01-10.htm#P3363_1568793

The bishops of the East did not give in, and they wrote a letter to Victor:
“But the bishops of Asia, led by Polycrates, decided to hold to the old custom handed down to them. He himself, in a letter which he addressed to Victor and the church of Rome, set forth in the following words the tradition which had come down to him:
“We observe the exact day; neither adding, nor taking away. For in Asia also great lights have fallen asleep, which shall rise again on the day of the Lord's coming, when he shall come with glory from heaven, and shall seek out all the saints. Among these are Philip, one of the twelve apostles, who fell asleep in Hierapolis; and his two aged virgin daughters, and another daughter, who lived in the Holy Spirit and now rests at Ephesus; and, moreover, John,who was both a witness and a teacher, who reclined upon the bosom of the Lord, and, being a priest, wore the sacerdotal plate.””

-Eusebius, Church History 5.24.1-2
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/Npnf2-01-10.htm#P3363_1568793

This is a perfect example of ‘apostolic’ traditions originating from apostolic sees contradicting each other. If anything, this proves that oral traditions are unreliable at best.

The Age of Jesus According to Irenaeus


Irenaeus was one of the earliest church fathers, and he was a very popular anti-gnostic writer. In his famous work, Against Heresies, Irenaeus used what he believed to be an apostolic tradition for one of his arguments against Gnosticism:

“On completing His thirtieth year He suffered, being in fact still a young man, and who had by no means attained to advanced age. Now, that the first stage of early life embraces thirty years, and that this extends onwards to the fortieth year, every one will admit; but from the fortieth and fiftieth year a man begins to decline towards old age, which our Lord possessed while He still fulfilled the office of a Teacher, even as the Gospel and all the elders testify; those who were conversant in Asia with John, the disciple of the Lord, [affirming] that John conveyed to them that information. And he remained among them up to the times of Trajan. Some of them, moreover, saw not only John, but the other apostles also, and heard the very same account from them, and bear testimony as to the [validity of] the statement…But, besides this, those very Jews who then disputed with the Lord Jesus Christ have most clearly indicated the same thing. For when the Lord said to them, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day; and he saw it, and was glad,” they answered Him, “Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?” Now, such language is fittingly applied to one who has already passed the age of forty, without having as yet reached his fiftieth year, yet is not far from this latter period. But to one who is only thirty years old it would unquestionably be said, “Thou art not yet forty years old.” For those who wished to convict Him of falsehood would certainly not extend the number of His years far beyond the age which they saw He had attained; but they mentioned a period near His real age, whether they had truly ascertained this out of the entry in the public register, or simply made a conjecture from what they observed that He was above forty years old, and that He certainly was not one of only thirty years of age…He did not then wont much of being fifty years old.” (emphasis mine)
-Irenaeus, Against Heresies 2.22.5-6
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-59.htm#P7011_1802900

Here, Irenaeus claims that Jesus lived to be nearly fifty years old before He was crucified, and he cited this as an apostolic tradition that originated from the Apostle John. However, we know that Jesus only lived to be thirty-three years old when he was crucified.

Cyprian and Firmilian vs. Stephen

In the mid-third century, a controversy arose whether heretical baptism was valid. Cyprian, like his fellow African, Tertullian, said that it was not valid and claimed apostolic tradition for his practice. Stephen, the bishop of Rome, on the other hand, said that heretics should not be re-baptized and also claimed apostolic tradition for his beliefs. Cyprian records Stephen’s claims:

“But that they who are at Rome do not observe those things in all cases which are handed down from the beginning, and vainly pretend the authority of the apostles…” (emphasis mine)
-Cyprian, The Epistles of Cyprian, Letter LXXIV.6
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-99.htm#P6387_2042966

Cyprian goes on to say that Stephen’s apostolic tradition is false and that the rest of the churches of the world agree with his (i.e. Cyprian’s) ‘apostolic’ tradition:

“…any one may know also from the fact, that concerning the celebration of Easter, and concerning many other sacraments of divine matters, he may see that there are some diversities among them, and that all things are not observed among them alike, which are observed at Jerusalem, just as in very many other provinces also many things are varied because of the difference of the places and names. And yet on this account there is no departure at all from the peace and unity of the Catholic Church, such as Stephen has now dared to make; breaking the peace against you, which his predecessors have always kept with you in mutual love and honour, even herein defaming Peter and Paul the blessed apostles, as if the very men delivered this who in their epistles execrated heretics, and warned us to avoid them. Whence, it appears that this tradition is of men which maintains heretics, and asserts that they have baptism, which belongs to the Church alone.” (emphasis mine)
-Cyprian, The Epistles of Cyprian, Letter LXXIV.6
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-99.htm#P6387_2042966

Cyprian records a letter from Firmilian, bishop of Cappadocia, which sides with him:

“But with respect to the refutation of custom which they seem to oppose to the truth, who is so foolish as to prefer custom to truth, or when he sees the light, not to forsake the darkness?-unless most ancient custom in any respect avail the Jews, upon the advent of Christ, that is, the Truth, in remaining in their old usage, and forsaking the new way of truth. And this indeed you Africans are able to say against Stephen, that when you knew the truth you forsook the error of custom. But we join custom to truth, and to the Romans’ custom we oppose custom, but the custom of truth; holding from the beginning that which was delivered by Christ and the apostles. Nor do we remember that this at any time began among us, since it has always been observed here, that we knew none but one Church of God, and accounted no baptism holy except that of the holy Church.” (emphasis mine)
-Cyprian, The Epistles of Cyprian, Letter LXXIV.19
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-99.htm#P6387_2042966

Eusebius records the letter of Dionysius of Alexandria to Sixtus I about Stephen:

“’He therefore had written previously concerning Helenus and Firmilianus, and all those in Cilicia and Cappadocia and Galatia and the neighboring nations, saying that he would not commune with them for this same cause; namely, that they re-baptized heretics. But consider the importance of the matter. For truly in the largest synods of the bishops, as I learn, decrees have been passed on this subject, that those coming over from heresies should be instructed, and then should be washed and cleansed from the filth of the old and impure leaven. And I wrote entreating him concerning all these things.’” (emphasis mine)
-Eusebius, Church History 7.7.4-5
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/Npnf2-01-12.htm#P4241_2002100

Not only did these two so-called ‘apostolic’ traditions contradict each other (which brings doubt to the reliability of oral tradition), but the Roman Catholic Church holds to the same tradition today that Stephen held to in the third century. Nearly the entire early church in the days of Cyprian and Stephen opposed Stephen’s custom as being non-apostolic. Thus, the modern Roman Church is in violation of its vow never to interpret the Scriptures in opposition to the unanimous consent of the church fathers.

The Septuagint Myth

The Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, was written a few hundred years before the First Advent of Christ, and it became the Bible translation for the Christians of the early church. Between the time that the Septuagint was formed and the Church Age, many myths appeared about the formation of the Septuagint, and many Christians came to believe in them. Cyril of Jerusalem typifies this:

“For after the death of Alexander, the king of the Macedonians, and the division of his kingdom into four principalities, into Babylonia, and Macedonia, and Asia, and Egypt, one of those who reigned over Egypt, Ptolemy Philadelphus, being a king very fond of learning, while collecting the books that were in every place, heard from Demetrius Phalereus, the curator of his library, of the Divine Scriptures of the Law and the Prophets, and judged it much nobler, not to get the books from the possessors by force against their will, but rather to propitiate them by gifts and friendship; and knowing that what is extorted is often adulterated, being given unwillingly, while that which is willingly supplied is freely given with all sincerity, he sent to Eleazar, who was then High Priest, a great many gifts for the Temple here at Jerusalem, and caused him to send him six interpreters from each of the twelve tribes of Israel for the translation. Then, further, to make experiment whether the books were Divine or not, he took precaution that those who had been sent should not combine among themselves, by assigning to each of the interpreters who had come his separate chamber in the island called Pharos, which lies over against Alexandria, and committed to each the whole Scriptures to translate. And when they had fulfilled the task in seventy-two days, he brought together all their translations, which they had made in different chambers without sending them one to another, and found that they agreed not only in the sense but even in words. For the process was no word-craft, nor contrivance of human devices: but the translation of the Divine Scriptures, spoken by the Holy Ghost, was of the Holy Ghost accomplished.” (emphasis mine)
-Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures 4.34
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-07/Npnf2-07-09.htm#P452_92480

Cyril, like many Christians, believed that the translators were sent into separate caves and came up with the same translation of the Old Testament word for word, and he used this belief to convince his catechumens that they could trust their Greek translation of the Old Testament. However, as many scholars have shown, the belief about the separate caves and the same translations is a myth. This myth is further disproved by comparing the Septuagint to the Hebrew and Aramaic Old Testament where it can be shown that there are obvious mistranslations.

http://www.lightshinesindarkness.com/contadiction_tradition.htm

Yo no hablo ingles jejeje.
 
Re: LOS LLAMADOS PADRES APOSTOLICOS Y DE LA IGLESIA

Disculpas a mis hermano que no hablan ingles:

The Contradictions of
‘Apostolic’ Tradition​


Roman Catholicism teaches that the apostles left the church with an unwritten authoritative oral tradition. This tradition supposedly gives us the proper way of how Scripture is to be interpreted, and the Roman Church claims that it practices and interprets Scripture according to those traditions that were taught by apostles. However, as history shows, there are many reasons why one should reject the claim of ‘apostolic’ tradition.

Papias vs. Eusebius

Papias, one of the earliest of the church fathers, made a few claims concerning so-called ‘apostolic’ traditions. However, Eusebius, a fourth century church historian, repudiates his ‘apostolic’ traditions as being ‘mythical’:

“But it is fitting to subjoin to the words of Papias which have been quoted, other passages from his works in which he relates some other wonderful events which he claims to have received from tradition. That Philip the apostle dwelt at Hierapolis with his daughters has been already stated. But it must be noted here that Papias, their contemporary, says that he heard a wonderful tale from the daughters of Philip. For he relates that in his time one rose from the dead. And he tells another wonderful story of Justus, surnamed Barsabbas: that he drank a deadly poison, and yet, by the grace of the Lord, suffered no harm. The Book of Acts records that the holy apostles after the ascension of the Saviour, put forward this Justus, together with Matthias, and prayed that one might be chosen in place of the traitor Judas, to fill up their number. The account is as follows: “And they put forward two, Joseph, called Barsabbas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias; and they prayed and said.” The same writer gives also other accounts which he says came to him through unwritten tradition, certain strange parables and teachings of the Saviour, and some other more mythical things. To these belong his statement that there will be a period of some thousand years after the resurrection of the dead, and that the kingdom of Christ will be set up in material form on this very earth. I suppose he got these ideas through a misunderstanding of the apostolic accounts, not perceiving that the things said by them were spoken mystically in figures. For he appears to have been of very limited understanding, as one can see from his discourses.” (emphasis mine)
-Eusebius, Church History 3.39.8-13
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/Npnf2-01-08.htm#P2185_1027485

As you can see, many of the church fathers did not accept Papias’ ‘apostolic’ traditions. Another thing that must be noted is that Papias’ ‘apostolic’ tradition about the coming of Christ is in opposition to Roman Catholic teaching. Papias said that premillennialism was an ‘apostolic’ tradition while the Roman Catholic Church holds to amillennialism.

Easter: Polycrates vs. Victor

In the late 2nd century, Victor, the bishop of Rome, threatened to cut off communion with the Eastern churches because they celebrated Easter on a different day than that of the Western churches. The Eastern churches, represented by Polycrates, bishop of Ephesus, defied the bishop of Rome, and both sides claimed that apostolic tradition was on their side. Eusebius records this:

“For the parishes of all Asia, as from an older tradition, held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which day the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as the feast of the Saviour’s passover. It was therefore necessary to end their fast on that day, whatever day of the week it should happen to be. But it was not the custom of the churches in the rest of the world to end it at this time, as they observed the practice which, from apostolic tradition, has prevailed to the present time, of terminating the fast on no other day than on that of the resurrection of our Saviour.” (emphasis mine)
-Eusebius, Church History 5.23.1
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/Npnf2-01-10.htm#P3363_1568793

The bishops of the East did not give in, and they wrote a letter to Victor:
“But the bishops of Asia, led by Polycrates, decided to hold to the old custom handed down to them. He himself, in a letter which he addressed to Victor and the church of Rome, set forth in the following words the tradition which had come down to him:
“We observe the exact day; neither adding, nor taking away. For in Asia also great lights have fallen asleep, which shall rise again on the day of the Lord's coming, when he shall come with glory from heaven, and shall seek out all the saints. Among these are Philip, one of the twelve apostles, who fell asleep in Hierapolis; and his two aged virgin daughters, and another daughter, who lived in the Holy Spirit and now rests at Ephesus; and, moreover, John,who was both a witness and a teacher, who reclined upon the bosom of the Lord, and, being a priest, wore the sacerdotal plate.””

-Eusebius, Church History 5.24.1-2
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/Npnf2-01-10.htm#P3363_1568793

This is a perfect example of ‘apostolic’ traditions originating from apostolic sees contradicting each other. If anything, this proves that oral traditions are unreliable at best.

The Age of Jesus According to Irenaeus


Irenaeus was one of the earliest church fathers, and he was a very popular anti-gnostic writer. In his famous work, Against Heresies, Irenaeus used what he believed to be an apostolic tradition for one of his arguments against Gnosticism:

“On completing His thirtieth year He suffered, being in fact still a young man, and who had by no means attained to advanced age. Now, that the first stage of early life embraces thirty years, and that this extends onwards to the fortieth year, every one will admit; but from the fortieth and fiftieth year a man begins to decline towards old age, which our Lord possessed while He still fulfilled the office of a Teacher, even as the Gospel and all the elders testify; those who were conversant in Asia with John, the disciple of the Lord, [affirming] that John conveyed to them that information. And he remained among them up to the times of Trajan. Some of them, moreover, saw not only John, but the other apostles also, and heard the very same account from them, and bear testimony as to the [validity of] the statement…But, besides this, those very Jews who then disputed with the Lord Jesus Christ have most clearly indicated the same thing. For when the Lord said to them, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day; and he saw it, and was glad,” they answered Him, “Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?” Now, such language is fittingly applied to one who has already passed the age of forty, without having as yet reached his fiftieth year, yet is not far from this latter period. But to one who is only thirty years old it would unquestionably be said, “Thou art not yet forty years old.” For those who wished to convict Him of falsehood would certainly not extend the number of His years far beyond the age which they saw He had attained; but they mentioned a period near His real age, whether they had truly ascertained this out of the entry in the public register, or simply made a conjecture from what they observed that He was above forty years old, and that He certainly was not one of only thirty years of age…He did not then wont much of being fifty years old.” (emphasis mine)
-Irenaeus, Against Heresies 2.22.5-6
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-59.htm#P7011_1802900

Here, Irenaeus claims that Jesus lived to be nearly fifty years old before He was crucified, and he cited this as an apostolic tradition that originated from the Apostle John. However, we know that Jesus only lived to be thirty-three years old when he was crucified.

Cyprian and Firmilian vs. Stephen

In the mid-third century, a controversy arose whether heretical baptism was valid. Cyprian, like his fellow African, Tertullian, said that it was not valid and claimed apostolic tradition for his practice. Stephen, the bishop of Rome, on the other hand, said that heretics should not be re-baptized and also claimed apostolic tradition for his beliefs. Cyprian records Stephen’s claims:

“But that they who are at Rome do not observe those things in all cases which are handed down from the beginning, and vainly pretend the authority of the apostles…” (emphasis mine)
-Cyprian, The Epistles of Cyprian, Letter LXXIV.6
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-99.htm#P6387_2042966

Cyprian goes on to say that Stephen’s apostolic tradition is false and that the rest of the churches of the world agree with his (i.e. Cyprian’s) ‘apostolic’ tradition:

“…any one may know also from the fact, that concerning the celebration of Easter, and concerning many other sacraments of divine matters, he may see that there are some diversities among them, and that all things are not observed among them alike, which are observed at Jerusalem, just as in very many other provinces also many things are varied because of the difference of the places and names. And yet on this account there is no departure at all from the peace and unity of the Catholic Church, such as Stephen has now dared to make; breaking the peace against you, which his predecessors have always kept with you in mutual love and honour, even herein defaming Peter and Paul the blessed apostles, as if the very men delivered this who in their epistles execrated heretics, and warned us to avoid them. Whence, it appears that this tradition is of men which maintains heretics, and asserts that they have baptism, which belongs to the Church alone.” (emphasis mine)
-Cyprian, The Epistles of Cyprian, Letter LXXIV.6
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-99.htm#P6387_2042966

Cyprian records a letter from Firmilian, bishop of Cappadocia, which sides with him:

“But with respect to the refutation of custom which they seem to oppose to the truth, who is so foolish as to prefer custom to truth, or when he sees the light, not to forsake the darkness?-unless most ancient custom in any respect avail the Jews, upon the advent of Christ, that is, the Truth, in remaining in their old usage, and forsaking the new way of truth. And this indeed you Africans are able to say against Stephen, that when you knew the truth you forsook the error of custom. But we join custom to truth, and to the Romans’ custom we oppose custom, but the custom of truth; holding from the beginning that which was delivered by Christ and the apostles. Nor do we remember that this at any time began among us, since it has always been observed here, that we knew none but one Church of God, and accounted no baptism holy except that of the holy Church.” (emphasis mine)
-Cyprian, The Epistles of Cyprian, Letter LXXIV.19
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-99.htm#P6387_2042966

Eusebius records the letter of Dionysius of Alexandria to Sixtus I about Stephen:

“’He therefore had written previously concerning Helenus and Firmilianus, and all those in Cilicia and Cappadocia and Galatia and the neighboring nations, saying that he would not commune with them for this same cause; namely, that they re-baptized heretics. But consider the importance of the matter. For truly in the largest synods of the bishops, as I learn, decrees have been passed on this subject, that those coming over from heresies should be instructed, and then should be washed and cleansed from the filth of the old and impure leaven. And I wrote entreating him concerning all these things.’” (emphasis mine)
-Eusebius, Church History 7.7.4-5
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/Npnf2-01-12.htm#P4241_2002100

Not only did these two so-called ‘apostolic’ traditions contradict each other (which brings doubt to the reliability of oral tradition), but the Roman Catholic Church holds to the same tradition today that Stephen held to in the third century. Nearly the entire early church in the days of Cyprian and Stephen opposed Stephen’s custom as being non-apostolic. Thus, the modern Roman Church is in violation of its vow never to interpret the Scriptures in opposition to the unanimous consent of the church fathers.

The Septuagint Myth

The Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, was written a few hundred years before the First Advent of Christ, and it became the Bible translation for the Christians of the early church. Between the time that the Septuagint was formed and the Church Age, many myths appeared about the formation of the Septuagint, and many Christians came to believe in them. Cyril of Jerusalem typifies this:

“For after the death of Alexander, the king of the Macedonians, and the division of his kingdom into four principalities, into Babylonia, and Macedonia, and Asia, and Egypt, one of those who reigned over Egypt, Ptolemy Philadelphus, being a king very fond of learning, while collecting the books that were in every place, heard from Demetrius Phalereus, the curator of his library, of the Divine Scriptures of the Law and the Prophets, and judged it much nobler, not to get the books from the possessors by force against their will, but rather to propitiate them by gifts and friendship; and knowing that what is extorted is often adulterated, being given unwillingly, while that which is willingly supplied is freely given with all sincerity, he sent to Eleazar, who was then High Priest, a great many gifts for the Temple here at Jerusalem, and caused him to send him six interpreters from each of the twelve tribes of Israel for the translation. Then, further, to make experiment whether the books were Divine or not, he took precaution that those who had been sent should not combine among themselves, by assigning to each of the interpreters who had come his separate chamber in the island called Pharos, which lies over against Alexandria, and committed to each the whole Scriptures to translate. And when they had fulfilled the task in seventy-two days, he brought together all their translations, which they had made in different chambers without sending them one to another, and found that they agreed not only in the sense but even in words. For the process was no word-craft, nor contrivance of human devices: but the translation of the Divine Scriptures, spoken by the Holy Ghost, was of the Holy Ghost accomplished.” (emphasis mine)
-Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures 4.34
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-07/Npnf2-07-09.htm#P452_92480

Cyril, like many Christians, believed that the translators were sent into separate caves and came up with the same translation of the Old Testament word for word, and he used this belief to convince his catechumens that they could trust their Greek translation of the Old Testament. However, as many scholars have shown, the belief about the separate caves and the same translations is a myth. This myth is further disproved by comparing the Septuagint to the Hebrew and Aramaic Old Testament where it can be shown that there are obvious mistranslations.

http://www.lightshinesindarkness.com/contadiction_tradition.htm

Yo no encuentro contradicciones en las obras Apostolicas, aunque podrias remarcar en donde contradice a cada quien.
 
Re: LOS LLAMADOS PADRES APOSTOLICOS Y DE LA IGLESIA

Muy bien decía uno de los padres apsotólicos:

"Para aquel que quiera creer tengo mil pruebas, pero para el que no quiera creer no tengo ninguna" San Agustín

Bendiciones!
 
Re: LOS LLAMADOS PADRES APOSTOLICOS Y DE LA IGLESIA

jajaja, Agustín NO creía en salvo siempre Salvo!!!!!

Mientes, si sabia, me sorprende que digas tal cosa, ¿quieres conocer eso? esperate no mas.

A Herald, le digo que tiene razon en algo, asi como los de la icar dicen que en la biblia no dice que se debe creer en la sola scriptura, tambien tu preguntaste muy acertadamente cuando dijiste que tampoco en la biblia se dice que se necesita de los escritos chancrosantos que usan los de la icar para sostener sus doctrinas humeantes y asqueantes.
 
Re: LOS LLAMADOS PADRES APOSTOLICOS Y DE LA IGLESIA

Vayikra NUNCA me repondiste el post de "sola Escritura", pero esto era un sólo parentesis, en fin el rechazar a los Padres Apostólicos es rechazar el mismo evangelio porque ellos explicaban lo que los apotóles enseñaron y no quedó escrito.

Bendiciones!

Mientes, porque si eso que dices es cierto entonces los contradicciones de los discipulos de los apostoles tambien son inspiradas y por lo tanto tu argmento se refuta asi mismo.

Tambien notaras si tienes algo de conocimiento que en los dias de la misma iglesia primitiva escrita en los hechos habia discrepancias entre los mismos cristianos.

Ademas eso que dice el catolico significa que los discipulos nunca se desviarian de la verdad cosa completamente absurda. Muchos discipulos no siempre creen lo que dicen sus propios maestros y sin embrago estos señores dicen que los discipulos de los apostoles no pudieron tener ideas distintas.

Otra cosita 1 Corintios 4:6 "Pero esto, hermanos, lo he presentado como ejemplo en mí y en Apolos por amor de vosotros, para que en nosotros aprendáis a no pensar más de lo que está escrito, no sea que por causa de uno, os envanezcáis unos contra otros".

A. T. Robertson el mas grande gramatico sobre la historia del idioma Griego dice:

"Besson da una buena solucion traduciendolo en forma de cita: para que en nosotros aprendais aquello de no mas alla de lo que esta escrito".
 
Re: LOS LLAMADOS PADRES APOSTOLICOS Y DE LA IGLESIA

No hace falta, la Biblioteca de unos amigos Jesuitas me dejan checarlos y en Español. :) Y te digo, no se contradicen, sino que son tan Cristianos como los Catolicos.

Bueno ya se ha demostrado que don agustin creia en la predestinacion.

Otra cpsita envianos esa biblioteca de tu compadre el jesuitaese para leer mas detalladamente sobre sus libros y ver en realidad que si habian unidad como tu dices, ¿entiendes erudito?
 
Re: LOS LLAMADOS PADRES APOSTOLICOS Y DE LA IGLESIA

Bueno ya se ha demostrado que don agustin creia en la predestinacion.

Otra cpsita envianos esa biblioteca de tu compadre el jesuitaese para leer mas detalladamente sobre sus libros y ver en realidad que si habian unidad como tu dices, ¿entiendes erudito?

Si, pero San Agustin decia tambien lo siguiente:

No creería en el Evangelio, si a ello no me moviera la autoridad de la Iglesia católica
San Agustín. C. ep. Man. 5,6; cf. C. Faustum 28,2
 
Re: LOS LLAMADOS PADRES APOSTOLICOS Y DE LA IGLESIA

Si, pero San Agustin decia tambien lo siguiente:

No creería en el Evangelio, si a ello no me moviera la autoridad de la Iglesia católica
San Agustín. C. ep. Man. 5,6; cf. C. Faustum 28,2

Tienes razon en lo que el decia, pero aca no se esta tocando ese tema, lo que se esta tocando es que ellos diferian.

Ademas si el hacia caso de la autoridad de la iglesia entonces la iglesia enseñaba la predestinacion como la creia el, entonces de ellos se sigue que la icar no enseña la predestinacion y por lo tanto esta equivocada. Ahora si la iglesia catolica no esta equivocada entonces lo estaba don agustin.

Bendiciones.
 
Re: LOS LLAMADOS PADRES APOSTOLICOS Y DE LA IGLESIA

Tienes razon en lo que el decia, pero aca no se esta tocando ese tema, lo que se esta tocando es que ellos diferian.

Ademas si el hacia caso de la autoridad de la iglesia entonces la iglesia enseñaba la predestinacion como la creia el, entonces de ellos se sigue que la icar no enseña la predestinacion y por lo tanto esta equivocada. Ahora si la iglesia catolica no esta equivocada entonces lo estaba don agustin.

Bendiciones.

¿Ah si? ¿Donde exactamente san Agustin afirma la PREDESTINACION?